Joseph Baker
by Joseph Baker
For many students looking for a career in healthcare, allopathic medical school is the only option that they have considered. While information exists on podiatry as a professional career choice, it can be missed behind the stacks of information on allopathic and osteopathic medicine.
Podiatry school, or podiatric medical school, is very similar to its allopathic and osteopathic medical school counterparts, with some key differences. The biggest difference is the degree earned. A graduate of podiatric medical school receives a doctoral degree of podiatric medicine, or a DPM. This degree certifies the graduate to be a complete and specialized physician of the foot and ankle.
Following graduation from a four-year podiatric medical college, a podiatrist will then go through three years of residency training. Podiatrists, or podiatric physicians, commonly treat sprains, strains, and fractures of the foot and ankle, biomechanical deformities, dermatological problems of the lower extremity, and many other conditions of the lower extremity.
As an undergraduate student, I knew that I wanted a career in healthcare, but I was not sure which aspect of healthcare would interest me the most. I shadowed several different doctors, including an internist, an otolaryngologist, and an orthopedic surgeon. I also shadowed a dentist and a pharmacist, and worked in a research lab with a microbiologist. I had lots of experiences with all kinds of healthcare professionals, but my decision to apply to podiatry school came after shadowing a podiatrist.
It was truly a great experience. The podiatrist that I shadowed was the most willing of any of the professionals to have me come to work with him for a day. In fact, I ended up going back several times to see various procedures, including both clinical and surgical operations.
The array of procedures that I observed would have been enough to turn me on to the field, but it was a comment from one of the patients that really had an impact in my decision. She told me that her podiatrist was her absolute favorite doctor, and the only one that she looked forward to seeing. It was right then and there that I knew that this was the profession was for me.
To be fair, I did have some experience working with foot and ankle injuries. I worked a part-time job in college in a running store, and was exposed to quite a bit of sports-related injuries. I think that this exposure contributed to my interest in the field of podiatric medicine, and the experience I had shadowing a doctor of podiatric medicine solidified my decision.
Now that I have been through one year of school and am beginning my second year, I can without a single doubt say that my decision to go to podiatric medical school was the best decision that I’ve ever made. The day-to-day learning that comes with an education in podiatric medicine includes the basic science curriculum seen in other medical fields, but tailored to podiatry. This gets me and my fellow students pumped up about learning, because we learn about our specialty much earlier than allopathic or osteopathic medical students. Right now I’m taking a sports medicine class, and we’ll be starting podiatric radiology soon. It’s great to begin learning about the specialty while still in school, rather than waiting until residency to begin training in a particular area.
Students working in podiatry anatomy lab
A typical day for me in school involves either a full day of class, or a day spent in the podiatry clinic that is run by the school. In the clinic, we get lots of patient exposure and practice. We take the patient’s history, perform a focused physical exam, and may assist in procedures. I’ve seen lots of really interesting cases so far, and I’ve only just begun in the clinic. By the end of the second year I will have had a ton of interactions with patients, which is something unique to podiatry school.
As far as the curriculum goes, our classes are a lot like the classes at any other medical school. In fact, our podiatry school is at the same university as an allopathic medical school, and we take a lot of classes with the allopathic students. This helps to promote an interprofessional learning environment, something that is very common in healthcare. We as podiatry students take anatomy and pathology with the allopathic students, as well as our clinical reasoning course. It’s nice to have friends and colleagues in school that are going into different fields of medicine, because we will likely be working together in the future as physicians.
Being a podiatrist is an excellent career choice, and it is something that all pre-health students should consider. It is an option among many, but for me it is the best choice.
APMA has a new video that has other students and DPMs talking about why they chose podiatric medicine. This is a great article and the video (hosted on YouTube) is also a great way to learn about this career. Feel free to watch it at this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvDu7oeAzRE
As a medical student, I do not see the reason for a distinction between the two degrees. They should just make them MD’s unless they choose to stay a DPM….same job same education
I totally agree with Eddy. Why isn’t podiatric medicine just a fellowship for MD’s/DO’s?
I just want to say that there’s a reason why podiatrists are called podiatrists. They are not eligible for MD/DO presidencies because they are not capable of doing what MDs/DOs do. All you guys can say such and such, monkeys are not human!!
There is a push for podiatry school to be equal to allopathic school. Its called Vision 2015. There are orthopods that specialize in the foot/ankle as well. Many people say podiatry is medicine’s best kept secret: private practice, specialization early on, etc. A few reasons why people go to pod school: A lot of foot/ankle problems can be fixed in one office visit. Someone comes in with a problem, and walk out with no problem. It is a fast rewards system. All podiatrists are surgeons and do surgery. While people say the scope is small, show me another doctor that sees all age ranges from infant to geriatric and treats all problems from dermatology to biomechanics. Thus, each day is different in the office, as opposed to doing the same physical or doing the same surgery every day.
I am going to be a bit anal and instruct you on the correct use of the word, “physician”. A physician is one who is trained first in general medicine. Any of the medical specialists can lay claim to being, “physicians” because we are all initially trained in the practice of general medicine.
Podiatrists, Chiropractors, Optometrists, and other healthcare providers do not qualify to be called physicians in the truest definition of the word. You are trained as specialists from the beginning and do not receive a sufficient education in general medicine to lay claim to the title of “physician”.
If you wanted to be referred to as such, then perhaps you should have gone to medical school.
DPM = Didn’t Pass (the) MCAT
This is specifically for surewhynot, the ignorant f***. I want to know where you go to school for you to feel so high and mighty. Many of my classmates in the pod program got into MD or DO schools. I can’t speak for the whole class, but most of us chose the profession for what it is. I’m sure there are those select few that chose it because they didn’t get into the MD/DO programs, but most of them don’t make it through anyways. I think we end up being better doctors because we specialize from the start. At my school, we take classes with the “prestigious” MD students and get graded on the same scale. At the hospital I work with, the 1st year pod residents teach the 3rd year ortho residents. While you end up stuck in internal med (no offense to those that want to do int med) because you didn’t match in a top residency, which I’m sure you want since you are so full of yourself, we will be laughing while you bust your ass making less than my sister in high school makes. We will work hours practicing a specialty that you wished you had a chance at while still having a life outside of work. Go f*** yourself.
The only thing I would argue here is the comment that the writer made stating: “By the end of the second year I will have had a ton of interactions with patients, which is something unique to podiatry school.”. Patient interaction is certainly not unique to podiatry school. At our allopathic school (during years 1/2) we visit patients every week, practice H&Ps, see procedures, interpret radiographs, view patient charts, etc. We start seeing patients from day 1 and many allopathic programs in the US are the same so I’m not sure why the author feels this is something unique to podiatry school.
To just briefly comment on HouseDO’s remark, American Heritage Dictionary defines a physician as “one who is licensed to practice medicine, a medical doctor”. Podiatrists earn the title of “Doctor of Podiatric Medicine” which makes them a physician. I don’t see why you feel the need to draw such a distinct line between a podiatrist and the sacred title of “DO”. Podiatrists go through just as much training as most docs, that means they earn the right to be called physician. So get off your #@$# high horse, you’re not anything special because you got into a DO school.
The last statement applies to the rest of the wanna be doctors out there too. Come back and talk smack when you finish a decent residency.
Haha. As previously stated, DPM pre-clinical sciences are nearly identical to MD/DO. DPMs do rotations in.. well, you should look it up if you think you know so much about it. In fact, its not worth debating with an ill informed party because it accomplishes nothing. Thankfully, House is here to save the world.
One problem with podiatry is the lower entrance scores, as alluded to by the acronym master Ortho. Hopefully, those scores will improve in the upcoming years, and thus no longer allow MD/DO/Dent dropouts into podiatry.
Ignorant people suck: 1st year pod residents teach 3rd year ortho residents? I thought that’s what ortho attendings were for. Seems kind of silly to have a residents in charge of teaching residents.
Podiatrists are great! I’m applying to medical school right now, however, I worked as a podiatric medical assistant for two years with podiatric physicians. They have multiple surgical cases a week, work in wound clinics, have numerous consults per day, and hold office hours 4-5 days a week. Although I definitely respect their extensive knowledge and what they do, when asked why I didn’t apply to podiatry school… it just wasn’t for me. Most pre-meds don’t end up doing what they imagined after clinical rotations 3rd/4th year. I did not want to limit myself to the foot and ankle right off the bat. And to be honest, I simply don’t want to cut toe nails, shave callus’, or remove warts day after day. I don’t think it’s gross or anything, it’s simply not something I want to do for 15/25 patients I see per day. Yes, I will get to perform surgery 3-5 times a week, interpret x-rays 5-10 times a day, and examine mri’s multiple times a week, routine foot care is just something I want to do 15X a day. Not trying to sound like I think I’m better than it or anything cause I’m NOT. Health care is health care… I just rather do something else. Podiatry isn’t for everyone. Medicine in general isn’t for everyone…
Dear Ignorant people suck,
What a waste of time and energy to write such a hateful response. All I did was state the true fact, why getting all butt hurt? Perhaps you are a little insecure about your career decision? Really, think twice before you write something so arrogant like that again.
By the way I don’t ride horses
surewhynot,
You did not post the truth. All you posted was ignorance and you are still showing your ignorance. Come back when you know what you are talking about.
Once again… DPM’s CANNOT and DO NOT practice the same as MD/DO’s. DPM’s are not eligible to apply for MD/DO residencies because they don’t take USMLE/COMLEX. Therefore, DPM are not capable to do what MD/DO’s do (This is the true fact, please stop denying).
You guys can prove me wrong if you can find me a DPM that finished a MD/DO residency. Until then, don’t be a douche when someone tells you the truth.
Podiatrists complete their own residency, usually a 3 year residency. The 1st yr is much like an intern year where pods rotate through IM, EM, gen surg, etc. The 2nd and 3rd years are spent in gen surg, trauma, ortho, pods. As far as scope goes, pods do everything with the foot and ankle. That means bones, muscles, ligaments, tendons, nerves, vascular, skin, nails using medical, biomechanical, and surgical treatments. You are right. No MD/DO can match the treatment arsenal of a DPM. Show me an MD/DO that can do a DPM residency. Show me an MD/DO that can do everything a DPM can.
Of course, this comment section had to turn into another md/do vs. dpm argument. lol, will it ever end? It’s not about showing each other who can do another’s residency… the question is who would want to do the other residency? I don’t think many MD/DO’s would want to do a podiatry residency, and likewise podiatry residents all love what they do and would not choose to do an allopathic/osteopathic residency.
How do I know this? MD/DO’s didn’t go to podiatry school. If they really wanted to do the podiatry residency I’m sure they could have gotten into podiatry school and went that path. Like I said in my first post, I’m applying to medical school because I rather not cut toenails, shave calluses, or remove warts for 15 out of the 25 patients I see a day. Would I want to do a podiatry residency? No. Podiatry is not for everyone. (I have to add this in or else I feel like some defensive pod students are going to give me shit… And yes, there are a lot you lol. Yes I know that’s more than what you do… just read my first post)
Also, all the podiatry residents I talked to throughout the years genuinely LOVE what they do. It would be pretty damn hard to convince them to change career paths/residencies if it were possible.
Come on guys, podiatrists are as real as a doctor can be. So many qualified MD/DO’s refer to them DAILY for consults whether during rounds or office visits. All the millions of those “real” physicians must be retarted if they are relying so much on the “quack” podiatrist for help.
Sean, I think you’re confusing a Pod (podiatric “doctor”) for Orthopod (Orthopedic Specialist doctor). I’m 100% certain that the MDs/DOs refer to Orthopods for consults rather than regular Pods.
Shan (love the name btw),
No, I meant -Pod (podiatric “doctor”). I saw podiatry consults and saw referrals for podiatrists everyday for two years from many many many MD/DO’s. lol, no confusion sir. Even the ER had podiatric surgeons for consults. Obviously, foot/ankle related cases.
Surewhynot,
Who said anything about you riding horses???
“Show me an MD/DO that can do everything a DPM can.”
are you being serious? an md/do that has completed an orthopedic residency and foot/ankle fellowship can do everything a podiatrist can and more, having completed a more comprehensive residency and fellowship. such comments are uninformed and inflammatory, and hence do nothing to further useful discussion – please refrain from making such comments in the future.
Podiatry students have basically as rigorous and as general of a curriculum in the first 2 years as 1st/2nd year medical students. At my school we have almost all of the same classes together. They score as high or even higher on the exams we take with them. Then they go and do rotations, a general internship year and then complete their residency. They can prescribe drugs, perform surgery, and know the lower limb inside and out. Sounds pretty sound to me. Why do we have to compare them to MD/DO’s? They are two different ways to specialize in medicine, and both require a lot of training and commitment. Doctors refer to pods ALL THE TIME.
uhhhwtf,
Orthopods do not like to deal with diabetic feet and in the treatment of such people result in an 80% higher rate of BK amputation vs. a pod. Do orthopods prescribe orthotics? Do they treat using biomechanics? No…they mostly do surgery.
Everyone will specialize. People have to understand that no one treats the entire body anymore. It just so happens that pods specialize sooner rather than later. It is not a psudoscience or a cult or quackery…it is real medicine. Making statements of “100% certain that the MDs/DOs…” or “do not receive a sufficient education in general medicine…” without knowing what you are talking about is just foolish.
An observation I have made is that the majority of people who talk down to pods are DO’s. Just remember that in 1938 the Judicial Council of the AMA made this statement, “Chiropody(podiatry) is not a cult as is OSTEOPATHY, chiropractic, or Christian science, which have non-scientific bases of treatment, chiropody is an ancillary to medical practice in a limited field considered not important enought for the physician and, therefore too often neglected, and fills a gap in the medical profession?” Podiatry along with osteopathy have changed a lot since then but podiatry has ALWAYS practiced true scientific based “western” medicine.
According dr_j previous commet: “So get off your #@$# high horse, you’re not anything special because you got into a DO school.”
Well, I got into a D.O. school so your statement implies that I ride a horse. I’m surprised that you don’t think before you write.
REFLECT!!
To someone,
I also got accepted to 4 MD schools. So, you should generalize D.O. based on your flawed obervation.
surewhynot,
The term “get off your high horse” does not imply that you literally ride a horse.
surewhynot,
“So, you should generalize D.O. based on your flawed obervation”
Ahhh…so you are a DO. So my observations were correct that the majority of people who put down DPMs are DOs. Where is my flaw? Point it out.
what most of the people do not realize is that many of the people who chose podiatry chose it over medical school. I for one was accepted to allopathic, US medical schools, yet chose podiatry. I do not feel like i owe anyone an explanation for my choice.
Let’s all be constructive. We all are part of the medical profession. Perhaps one the main reasons our health care system is splitting at the seams is because we have become so stratified in the way we treat other medical professions. We are all in the same boat and chose a profession in the medical field not to make us feel holier-than-thou or more prestigious, but for the benefit of the public at large. For those who feel it necessary to put down other professions to make yourself feel better and feel more important, your missing the whole point of your medical education and I feel extremely sorry for your future patients.
this is so stupid. pods are great. god bless their efforts. i teach them sometimes and they seem to really love what they do. It is correct to say they treat a vast range of things. there are very few specialties in medicine dealing with derm, ortho, rheum, surg. i don’t know if i were a pod, i would not listen to any of this crap. if it is mainly from DOs you can rest assured the comments are almost certainly stemming from some strange DODO inferiority complex!
I decided to go to Podiatry because I can’t get into MD schools. I would’ve applied to D.O. schools if I knew much of it. However, since people are beating up D.O.’s like this, I’m pretty damn happy with my decision!
Great. Another one of these… MD>=DO>Carib. MD>>>>>>>>DPM.
Surewhynot: That was directed at someone else, if you would have read the post you would know this. I’m surprised you don’t read before you write. Was taking the VR section not a requirement at your school?
Sorry, I’m in a psd off mood if anyone can tell and reading posts like this where people are trying to prove their career choice somehow makes them superior is just annoying.
It’s frustrating to think that these are some of the types I’m going to have to work with for the rest of my life.
And although I’m sure it feels good to say you got accepted into 4 MD schools… you didn’t.
I have been a member of this forum for a little while now, and it is true, the majority of D.P.M. bashers are D.O.’s. I was accepted at three different D.O. schools, and they were the only D.O. schools that i applied to. I am a student at O.C.P.M. because i thought Podiatry was more interesting. What makes D.O. students soo insecure that they feel the need to step on our heads??? I don’t feel the same way about D.O.’s, as a matter of fact, i made sure that my primary care provider was a D.O.; why, because i have always believed in the osteopathic philosophy. In addition, I do not see any disparity between a D.O. and an M.D., so why do you look down on us???
Kind of like how many dpm students say they chose podiatry even though a lot of their classmates and them got accepted into MD and DO schools; they didn’t.
To dr_j:
I got a 11 on VR thank you very much.
Give me your e-mail address and I will send you a scan my acceptance letters (only two sent out snail mails).
And YES, I will be the type physician that you will work with… and thanks to you all hardcore-pro-DPM’s, DPM’s will always be on my blacklist.
Deal with it
For those of you who are cool with making these students MD’s: would you want to give an MD to an orthodontist?
surewhynot:
drj70229@gmail.com
surewhynot: Well that’s unfortunate. DOs need help from podiatrists and likewise podiatrists need help from DOs. Being a team player and the ability to work well with other specialties is a big part of what health care is all about. Somehow you were able to trick your DO school into thinking that you understood this concept and they mistakenly accepted you. I suggest you learn this lesson early on in your career, however, otherwise you’ll have a difficult ahead of you if you feel like there are specialties in medicine you can “blacklist” and still be a functional part of the team.
Dear Ignorant People Suck,
Stop being a little b i t ch. MD/DO is better in most ways than Podiatry because they actually treat diseases. If a person were to pass out, you wouldn’t know what the f u ck to do because all you do is treat the feet. Please, get a life.
I am not saying Podiatry is bad. But to say it’s better than an MD/DO? WTF. Give me the sh it that you are smoking because that crap must be really strong.
- The King
Thank you LeRoyd
LONG LIVE THE KING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LeRoy,
You are oversimplifying. Take that same situation and add in an orthopod. The orthopod wouldn’t know what to do with the person who passed out either. Neither would a dermatologist or a radiologist.
The whole point of medicine is to do what’s best for the patients. Bottom line.
I’m a DPM resident, and we consult vasc surg, FP/IM, cards, plastics, infect dz, etc etc so that we can put our skills together. Those services also consult us. It’s all a matter of letting everyone do what they are best trained for. Medicine is constantly getting more advanced and highly specialized, and as was said, nobody knows it all anymore.
As for the “patient passed out”: Well, yeah, I’m ACLS certified and I’d have a basic idea of how to handle medical emergency situations. Would most specialists – family med doc, pathologist, dermatologist, radiologist, ENT etc etc – be able to run a cardiac arrest code as well as a seasoned ER doc, ICU doc, or anesthesiologist who deals with such codes weekly/daily? Nope, they wouldn’t, because the specialists don’t use those skills as often. Likewise, those ER or ICU docs wouldn’t perform foot and ankle diagnostics and surgery as well as a trained DPM, and they might not even try… they’d just consult us for those types of cases, and we’re glad let them do what they do best. It’s all a matter of training and skill. You are what you repeatedly do.
As for F&A orthos compared with pods, there are many good (and not so good) F&A surgeons which come from either training model. It’s all a matter of training level, hard work, experience, and possibly subspecialty (pediatric F&A surgery, diabetic F&A surgery, trauma F&A surgery, elective F&A surgery, etc). I would simply say that the foot deserves its own dedicated surgeons due to small and complex anatomy + biomechanics, and I would emphasize that a well trained F&A specialist can help a lot of patients.
For those still in undergrad/grad, you might find that during residency training, you are a bit too busy with patient care to have these ego disputes? Regardless, GL to everyone with their undergrad/grad/residency/etc training and career choice…
Seth – I agree with everything you posted except when you said “nobody knows it all anymore”. You obviously haven’t met surewhynot. He will one day be a DO and as such will not need to consult a lowly podiatrist who knows nothing of cranial therapy and manipulative medicine.
Sorry but I have to chip in here. As a person who spent 2 years at Podiatry school and am now a 3rd year at an MD school in my home state (California) I am appalled at some of the comments other ‘professionals’ and students non-podiatry are making about the field, these people are simply ignorant haters. Podiatry is not ripping on your field but you seem to rip on them with knowing little about it. I can tell you first hand that I found podiatry school equally as challenging (if not more challenging in some classes) then my MD school. MD was harder in some courses too but overall I found the first 2 years basically the same with both institutions. What really surprized me is we didn’t even learn about the foot we just did our basic sciences. I took and passed the boards for both, and once again, pretty equal. So I can first hand tell you what the experience was like.
Unlike dentistry or optometry (which I am not disrespecting), podiatry schools teach you to be a physician first, a podiatrist second. This was stressed to us so many times and that we have to understand the whole body before even touching the feet. They also do a 3 year surgical residency. Let me repeat that, they do a 3 year surgical residency! So get a clue here: NO ONE who is going to come close in the amount of knowledge of the foot and ankle as a podiatrist, they are truly the specialists in their field. And instead of knocking them down, calling them names or what not, let’s welcome them to the team.
Some of you may be asking why did I change schools? Because I thought podiatry was what I wanted. I always thought I wanted to be a surgeon and figured podiatry would be an easier way to become one but I was wrong. Yeah I found out late in the game that I wanted nothing to do with surgery and I couldn’t stand the site of doing a 3 year surgery residency in something I didn’t have my heart in. So I transferred out and will be going into something I feel I am more passionate about (Radiology).
I am also a dpm student that transferred into a US md school and the two board exams are NOT the same in difficulty. Are you serious? After reading that statement I seriously think you are trolling. Also, in retrospect, the rotations throughout pod school seemed so watered down. I have to give it to you though, dpm’s do know their S*** when it comes to the foot.
The reason I transferred was because I simply was not happy. I hated the fact that after spending all the classroom time learning gross anat., phys., watered down core rotations other than podiatry (non-pod attendings knew we would never use what they taught), and a bread&butter surgery residency at a subpar hospital for 3 years(won’t give name
) I will still be cutting piles of toe nails and shaving calluses. I understand someone has to do it, but I did not go to school to spend 70% of my time doing this. I cut enough nails throughout pod school and residency. We learned a lot in school, but in practice… that’s another story. Surgery is great and all, but you won’t pay the bills with only podiatric sx reimbursements. Every dpm I worked with & my attendings did surgery a few days a week and spent the rest of their time cutting nails and etc. I hated the idea that I worked so hard to cut toe nails.
These DOs and MDs (supposed) are very angry on this thread. Most of these guys go into FP or internal medicine by which I would hate to be in right now. You will be struggling to repay your loans. some of these podiatry bashes are ortho hopefuls that probably won’t make it because they are at the lower tier of their med school class and hence take their frustrations out with the pods on here. Crushed ego, fear of the future, lil’ d*ck equates to internet bashing.
This seems to be a recurring theme is healthcare today. Everyone wants the prestige, benefits, reimbursements and pride that comes along with being a physician without putting in nearly the hard work. Optometrist now call themselves optometric physicians, we also have chiropractic physicians as well as podiatry physicians, audiologists have proclaimed themselves the primary are of hearing disorders, nurse practitioner and nurse anesthetist are getting doctoral degrees in English and introducing themselves to patients as doctors. The term “physician” means nothing nowadays. I don’t even call myself a physician anymore because I feel the need to be more clear to my patients to what exactly I do. I am training to be an internist.
Yes, I do call podiatry consults and I do send my patients to an audiologist and optometrist but not because I think that my MD/DO counterparts lack the expertise to deal with these patients. But because I know that a orthopedic surgeon dose not want to deal with issues where his expertise and time get wasted. I don’t send my patients to an ophthalmologist for a pair of glasses not because an ophthalmologist does not know how to refract but because he probably dosent want to waste his time doing something that is repetitive and for which exists a trained professional (an optometrist). ENT dose not want to sit there all day doing hearing evaluations when you can train anyone to do those. So there is a need for these professions in our current healthcare landscape but does that mean that this gives these professions the right to call themselves physicians? Lets for a minute take out all these professions from the current equation. This would lead to a lot more work for us MD/DO’s but would we be incapable of doing what these professions do?. Patients will still be able to get wound care, foot and ankle surgeries, prescription glasses and hearing evaluations. There are many developed nations where there is no podiatrist, optometrist and other rists but still have medical systems with medical care from head to toe. Now take out all the MD/DO’s from the equation. So now how many podiatry physicians, optometric physicians, chiropractic physicians are confident that they will be able to run ER’s, ICU’s, Surgery suites, Primary care clinics and General medical floors.
But of course since I am an internist and writing this then I must be disgruntled because I could not get into derm, ortho, anesthesia, ophtho, ENT residencies. All the cardiologists, gastroenterologists, intensivists, pulmonoligists, rheumotolgists, nephrologists and other gists are all disgruntled cause they had to internal medicine because they were in the bottom tier of their medical school class. The internists are also upset cause they are hospitalists, have good lifestyles, make 300,000 and poor FP’s they get no respect even after they work in ER’s, deal with life threatening emergencies day in day out also become hospitalists.
But f$%# it, lets just all be physicians and one big happy family.
Went to pod school b/c could not get into med school. simple enough
Happy,
I agree. Everyone wants to be a physician with all the available routes these days.
Although Podiatry has it’s own unique role in the health care system, let’s call a spade a spade and just admit their arguments are often hypocritical.
Argument #1: We are anatomical specialists like dentists. Ok, but at least dentists don’t consider themselves physicians. “No, but we take all the classes like gross anat, pharma, and etc.” Yes, but so do dentists. They know the entire scope also. “Yes, but we have rotations.” Yes, watered down rotations… Many podiatry students admit it. You should too.
Argument #2-1: MOST of my classmates and myself love podiatry and wanted to be a podiatrist since I was younger
Argument #2-2: MOST of my classmates and myself got into MD and DO schools but CHOSE podiatry.
Argument #2-3 (applicable for those who took the DAT): I Chose podiatry.
If you’re stance for podiatry is so strong and 100% CHOSE podiatry from the get go, why the hell did you take the DAT? You obviously wanted to go to dental school. For those who always say they and “MOST” of their classmates got into MD/DO schools, Why even apply to medical school if you aren’t going to go since you’ve already made up your mind on podiatry? Let’s face it, no one spends $1000+ on AMCAS, AACOMAS, and secondaries just to see if they’ll get in and then go to podiatry.
Argument #3-1: When I was in undergrad I shadowed a lot of doctors like internists, general surgeons, cardiologists, derm, and etc. and I didn’t really like any of it. But when I shadowed a podiatrist, I was amazed and really loved it. OK, if you shadowed all those docs above and didn’t like ANY of it, maybe medicine isn’t for you. Those are the bread and butter/foundation of medicine and clinical practice. What turned you on about the podiatrist so much? All the nail clippings on the ground next to the callused skin? Like someone said above, yes they do surgery, but most of their cases and largest reimbursements don’t have anything to do with surgery. Thus, you saw mostly non surgical procedures when you shadowed and thought it was awesome!
Argument #3-2: I want to be a surgeon. Wake up! Like I said earlier, majority of the cases in practice are not surgical(not talking about an ingrown toenail removal). Only about 1 out of 10-15.
Summary complete.
I hope all of you haters realize that many pods are partners in orthopedic practices. That should say something.
Yeah I don’t buy the argument that ” I got into md/do schools but choose podiatry”. The only folks I think go only podiatry are ones whose parents are podiatrists.
I already said that orthapedic surgeons do not waste their time clipping toe nails. That is why they hire podiatrist.
Also because podiatrists are hired and sign a contract generally for a lot less than an MD/DO foot and ankle specialist. Told by multiple dpm’s. Take it or leave it, but it happens all the time. Pay the pod less, more money saved. An MD/DO foot&ankle specialist costs too much.
yes, MD/DO’s win again
Surewhynot.
I’m not sure why you say such things..this wasn’t a contest that you’ve just won. You need to put more thinking into your posts. As a future Physician you will be part of many debates and discussions.
Definately a well deserved doctor in my book people:
-basic science pre reqs (organic chem, physics, bio, gen chem) for admission
-MCAT requirement (only a few schools don’t do this and they are changing it)
-4 years of medical school (yes, “Podiatric MEDICAL SCHOOL”)
-Multiple board exams
-3 years surgical RESIDENCY
-thus hospital rights to perform surgery (if you don’t consider this a biggie than I give up)
The field has (and still is) drastically changed for the better and it is not what it used to be 10+ years ago. And just because someone went into podiatry doesn’t mean they were declined from MD schools. Grow up. The field is very hands on and specialized, diverse in its work nature (wound care vs surgery vs C&C, etc) offers great hours, and pays very well…and with the growing rate of obesity and foot problems I don’t see it going anywhere but up. How is that for wanting to go into podiatry?
Dear someone,
Of course an orthopod, derm, and radiologist would know what to do when a person passes out – what do you think they learn in med. school and their first year of residency where they have to do internal medicine?
Granted, they might not know in every case, but probably a crapload more than a podiatrist!
Happy-
I really don’t see it as the ‘hiring’ of a pod by an orthopod in the kind of practice I’m referring to. They are a PARTNER in a practice. Sure they may get paid less, and yea they may do less desirable jobs or one’s that require less skill at times, but they are very necessary procedures and the pod is the specialist in most cases. The orthopod simply does *different* procedures. Clipping toenails? Ok, that kind of stuff is the bread and butter, but I’ve had foot surgery several times, all done by a podiatrist.
LeRoy,
What do you think pods learn in pod school and in 1st year residency when they rotate through emergency medicine and internal med? But does that mean they know enough to be 100% sure that they are providing the best treatment? No. That’s why you would leave it up to the specialists in that area.
I would hate to be classmates with many people here. I would flat out hate a few of you………I would even try to break you down into feeling like a hopeless loser so you can gain some fricken insight into life.
A foot doctor is an expert in the feet. Who gives crap if a foot doctor isn’t an MD or a DO. For crying out loud, they do a three year SURGICAL RESIDENCY SO THEY CAN PERFORM SURGERY. For any of you pre-med derma and plastic surgeon wannabes, you will be hatting your life very soon as you have to settle for peds and hate the rest of your life as you can’t quite because you are over two hundred thousand dollars in debt.
At the end of the day, a podiatrist takes care of feet. Why is that any better or worse than being a doctor that is an expert in the brain or the heart?
For crying out loud, people have foot problems. Someone needs to treat them.
I would slap a few of you across the face so fast I would hope you cry to your mommy and daddy because someone stood up to your brain washed stupidiy.
I am truly embarrassed for just having read this monstrosity of a comment board. I think SDN should take it down simply for the unprofessional degradation of what was a fantastic and encouraging article.
The comments have been far more entertaining than the article itself. Thanks to everyone who contributed to my study breaks over the last few days!
In all seriousness, the original article was quite good, and I would say that it gave me a greater respect for DPMs. And as for everyone else, you’ve just made me more satisfied with the direction I chose. Thank you Joseph Baker and everyone else for sharing your testimonies.
Seriously people. I am a DPM resident, I know that means I am a retarded nail clipper in many of your books, but I digress.
I just got back from the ER to evaluate and treat a bimalleolar fx of a 37 y/o female with PVD, IDDM, HTN and peripheral neuropathy. Oh and I know how to treat all those conditions the patient has other than the ankle fracture. I am required to treat the whole patient, not just the foot and ankle. Do you know that that foot did not just show up to the ER by itself, it was attached to a frickin’ person, holy crap! And I have to know their allergies, medical hx, whether or not I can cast her because of risk of DVT, edema, you know other medical things.
At my hospital we a one happy little family the ER chief is a DO who oversees many MD practitioners, yee gads is he qualified to do that???!!!
DPM, DO, MD, we need to stop fighting amongst ourselves about whose *ick is bigger. Get over it, in the end we are all doctors, we fix people! Either learn to play nice with others, shut your mouth and shun those you find inferior to you, or get out! The landscape of medicine is changing and if we, as a conglomeration of medical providers do not band together for ourselves and for patients we will soon see our personal choices taken away and we can all just do what we are told by some bean counter higher up (who by the way are usually nurse practitioners who have a masters in health care management.)
Was that last sentence really necessary? Can’t we all just get along? Caring for the patient is our primary goal right? Who care’s if she’s a np w/ a masters. Does she care less about the pt?
Yes and no. Yes because I am just showing that it really doesn’t matter what degree you hold, many other specialites regulate healthcare application. No because it can be construed as looking down on NP’s (who by the way I work with daily in the ER and clinics and think are great).
I always find it interesting that dentistry never comes up in these discussions. It’s really a testament to how successful the ADA has been over the years; dentists have a part in our lives just like family practitioners do. Nobody questions their legitimacy or says things like, ‘Oh, we have dentists because oral MDs don’t wanna clean teeth…’ it never even enters people’s minds.
That’s because dentists don’t claim to be physicians.
“Why I Chose Podiatry School?”
because you couldn’t get into medical school. I’m not trying to troll, either…just speaking the truth.
Majority of negativity against podiatrists are not because they claim to be physicians. A lot of what I have heard are:
1: not doctors
2: do not practice medicine
3: only clip toe nails
4: only do simple surgery
5: the extent of surgery that pods do are hang nails
6: no MD or DO send their patients to pods
7: everything a DPM does an MD or DO can do.
8: cannot prescribe meds
9: do not treat diseases
Whether DPMs are physicians…
Argument 1: Did not go to med school.
Counter argument 1: 1 DPM school takes many classes with MDs. Another takes all 1st year with DOs. 2 take all of 1st and 2nd with DOs.
Argument 2: Do not do the same rotations.
Counter argument 2: only rotations pods don’t do are psych and ob/gyn which I hear is changing and the 2 schools I mentioned earlier do all the rotations that DOs do.
Argument 3: rotations are watered down.
Counter argument 3: Maybe so but this is the fault of the attending…many attendings feel that “oh pods won’t need to learn this so whatever…I don’t care about teaching you”. And this cannot be said about every attending and every rotation. And this is not something instructed to the hospitals by the schools.
Argument 4: scope of practice is limited to foot and ankle / leg. Cannot treat the whole body.
Counter argument 4: Even MDs/DOs specialize. No one treats the whole body. The specialty you choose determines the training you receive which also determines your scope of practice. A FM or EM cannot do ortho surgery or general surgery. An ortho cannot do gen surgery or neurosurgery. A neurosurgery cannot do derm. No one but optho can refract and prescribe glasses or contact lenses. And lastly a general ortho cannot do rear foot reconstructive surgery and are limited to a number of forefoot surgery.
“unlimited” practice rights are limited by training.
Personally I do not care if DPMs are considered physicians or not because it does not affect my skills or training. It will not make me a better podiatrists. But I do care when ignorant people say any of the #1-9.
I dont understand why it is always the DOs that feel it is necessary to cut down other medical fields. One would think that from the history of Osteopathic medicine that they would be at the forefront of accepting a multi-disciplined approach to medical care. DOs only within the last few decades obtained parity with MDs, why do they feel it is necessary to tear down a growing field that in many respects is following a similar path Osteopathic medicine took 30 years ago.
All it took was a simple article about Mr. Baker’s decision to attend podiatry school to cause this uproar.
Personally, these posts are ridiculous but sadly I read through these comments. Obviously, people need to worry about themselves and stop worrying about prestige and what other people think of them. I, as an Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon, just finished my residency at a level 2 trauma center that happens to have a Podiatry residency, IM, Gen Surg, and Transitional. The resident that was awarded the “Outstanding Resident Award” during graduation was in Podiatry – obviously well respected within the hospital- the degree means nothing, its the quality of doctor you are that matters. This physician vs. non-physician argument is ridiculous. People go into professions based off what they feel they will enjoy and thrive in. Myself, I went to dental school because I wanted to be an Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon- yes I had a 4.0 gpa in college, yes I could have gone any route I wanted to but I decided on dentistry and ultimately Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery. I am a physician – no; Do I care? No because as an Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon I do my own surgery and I have a license to deliver Deep Sedation/General Anesthesia in my office, treat any type of facial trauma and get to do some amazing surgery. Just remember, a degree does not validate the doctor.
Wow.
I’ve certainly found these posts interesting. I am a future doctor, and I find it a little disheartening that other doctors would try to rip on other fields. I was sort of hoping more people would be more interested in becoming a DO/MD/DPM etc. because it’s what they wanted to do. I personally could care less who wants to call themselves a physician. If you have a competent education and treat patients then I have no problem calling you a physician and I look forward to working with you. I’m not interested in being a doctor for the prestige or because I’m the only profession that can be called a “physician”, it’s just simply what I want to do. I have to wonder why other people seem to care so much who gets the distinction of being called a physician? I sincerely believe in all fields there are highly skilled individuals with wonderful training. Some might have gone into the field because they couldn’t get into MD school – who cares? They still receive rigorous training and do a great service. End of story.
Dear Someone,
Please mind my rude comments. I was only fired up because some of the remarks people made (particularly that of Ignorant people suck).
- The King
Man you people have some chips on your shoulders huh? Everyone goes into specific fields for specific reasons. Just because some people didn’t go to med school doesn’t mean they couldn’t get in…Ever think that maybe some people don’t WANT to become doctors? Hmm? Never thought that? Hmm?
Obviously everyone here cares more about prestige and salary instead of their patients they help everyday. Maybe most of you should have become real estate brokers or went into stock. We don’t need any of your non-compassionate bullsh*t here.
Yeah, there’s a huge correlation between sdn posts and desire for patient care. Your last sentence wasn’t very compassionate so take your bullshi*t outta here. Jesus Christ! It’s just the internet.
I often wonder if the sentiments expressed on this comment section are what people are thinking and wanting to say (in real life) but do not because of social norms. It’s really easy to post anonymously. Makes you wonder about the true nature of people. Medicine should be a compassionate field. But obviously people do go into it for reasons that are other than altruistic. DPMs have their niche in medicine. Why can’t people accept that? I live in Arizona, a HUGE retirement state. There aren’t enough orthopedic doctors to treat this demographic. And some of them really don’t care/prefer the foot and ankle. If DPMs have a solid education, backed by a solid surgical residency, why all the negative flack? And in regards to cutting nails, you can always hire someone to cut nails for you if you’d rather focus on more complicated cases (of course this depends on how successful your business is). Every medical field has its faults. I would not want to do pelvic exams day in and day out. Nor would I want to make rectal exams, deal with phlegm, stare into mouths, operate on eyes a common occurrence for me. There’s a field of medicine for everyone. Let’s support each other.
I just wanted to say that I thought the article was well written and thoughtfully constructed. I go to Podiatric Medical school and take the same classes as DOs. I even have DOs in my study group. We get along great and I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Some of the comments on here are ignorance at its finest. I agree with some of the last posters that it shouldn’t matter what specialty you choose, we should all be able to get along. I chose a profession that deals with surgical cases, sports injuries, a growing patient base, salary above $150-250K, and working hours that are manageable and predictable. Enough said. Again, great article.
FootDoc: Your salary estimates are probably a little overstated. Median podiatrist salary reported by US Department of Labor = $108K. I realize a google search may report an AVERAGE pod salary of $150-250 but you have to keep in mind average salary reports generally do not represent what the average person makes. And many salary reports you find online get their data from surveys which are pretty unreliable. I’m not saying you can’t make $150-250+ as a pod, just don’t think that’s what the average pod makes because it isn’t.
I think someone brought this up earlier and I was not really satisfied with the response so I wanted to bring it up again.
1)Is there anything that a podiatrist is trained or certified to do that someone who has completed an orthopedic residency and a foot and ankle fellowship cannot do?
2) Are there any extras that the MD mentioned above can offer that the podiatrist can not? If so, what are they?
I would look this up myself but I am lazy and studying for step 2 so if anyone has the info please let’s hear it. I think the answer to these two questions will resolve a lot.
I basically want to know if podiatrists provide an indispensable non-replicable specialist service that nobody else is trained to do – which you might argue is what medical specialties generally are, or are they just a cheaper and more available (demand and supply) option to provide a service that some MDs (the fellow i described) are currently able to provide (just like PAs and NPs) just asking . . .
if so, i would like to know what podiatrists in this forum think about restructuring the process such that podiatry becomes an MD/DO residency like Ob/gyn or IM. I mean if you’re basically taking the same classes as med students now as you say you do then what is the difference really? would you have any objections to this? so basically anyone who loves podiatry and always wanted to become a podiatrist, apply and get into an allopathic or osteopathic med school, take the USMLE step 1/step 2/comlex and apply and match podiatry. that cool with you or would you be against that? why? just curious . . .
I also want to address what I think is at the root of all this fighting at least from the MD point of view. First of all, being a doctor/physician does not make you better than anybody else. Everybody answers their own call and follows their own dreams so you cannot put anyone down for what they CHOSE to do (and i do believe most people choose). however, this is where i think the sentiment comes from
- no matter how you slice it and this is not about being better or smarter just facts, it is harder to get into med school than podiatry school. i also believe it is harder to get through medical school than podiatry school and that the licensing exams med students have to take are more difficult than those taken by podiatrists. so, like anything else in life, when people sweat and toil to attain something that is more difficult they expect some reward, some . . .distinction. that’s what the whole “physician” beef (and maybe insecurity) is about i think. i don’t care if it’s business, sports, politics, academia, entertainment (and if you put yourself in this position, i think you’ll understand even if you don’t agree) nobody wants to take the tougher harder bloodier road and then at the end entertain suggestions that there is equivalence in any way between you and someone whose path was not as rough. i can respect differences and every one plays their role in this life but the suggestion of equivalence, both real and (i admit) sometimes imagined, is just not something many “med students” are prepared to hear.
p.s. – my award for best post so far goes to Sweet John
Confuscius.
You bring up many good questions. I don’t think I am the best person to answer some of your points, but I would like to try based off of my own research.
I believe in the past, pod schools were easier then med school. However, as more med schools integrate pod students in their existing 1-2 year classes with the regular med students, this view is slowly going away.
Yes pod schools are easier to get into based on gpa and mcat requirements. Some believe this is based on lack of popularity, not having the md/do designation, being required to specialize from the get go and the stigma that it is easier to get into.
The norm now is to institute 3 year surgical residencies that focus on the foot and ankle. Orthopedic physicians must complete a 5 year residency that focuses much more than the two areas mentioned. To then specialize in the foot and ankle, orthopedic physicians would then go onto to complete a 2 year fellowship. That’s 7 years versus 11 years… That’s a large difference. Especially for a person who has no interested other than the foot and ankle.
So yes, it is easier to get into, but is it any easier to get out of? This is grossly debatable if the two groups are taking the same courses. Once in residency, pod students are not just taught by dpms but by md/do’s. There is one residency I am extremely interested in where first year pod residents are treated the same as first year general surgery md/do residents. In this case is it any easier to finish? Not in my humble opinion.
Can orthopedic physicans do what a podiatrist does? Yes I believe so, especially if they choose to sub specialize in the foot and ankle (I have heard and read about fellowships). Are there many of them? Not in the state I live in (Arizona). Is there a need for podiatry where I reside? Yes, extremely so as AZ is a huge retirement state, and has a fairly active population… and diabetic population.
I believe if more orthopedic residencies opened up, this could hurt the growth of dpms…. but i don’t see this as a likely event. I shadowed at an orthopedic clinic, one that had 5+ physicans (can’t remember off the top of my head). But they focused mostly on shoulder, spine and hip surgery… they did virtually no diagnosis/treatment/surgery of the foot and ankle. When I asked why, the gist of the response was that it wasn’t as lucrative and they would rather refer the patient to someone who had more experience in this area. And yes, that usually meant referring them on to a podiatrist.
Maybe dpms will eventually be swallowed by md/do’s if podiatric surgery residencies were opened up to md/do’s as well. But as long as pod schools exist, I can’t see this happening. There are just too many politics that are currently in place. And as it stands there is a need for them, at least in my state.
to hmmm – i don’t know if you can say that the integration is making that opinion go away. i can see anatomy, biochem, neuro, histo being integrated but i think it’s less likely to have pharmacology, microbiology and path fully integrated because as all the pods here point out, you are going into your specialty from day one while we have to have a general foundation of medicine because we don’t know our specialties yet so what would be the point then? i think it’s hard to believe it does not cross your mind or affect your approach to sit in a path or micro class with med students and know 100% you will never ever need to use 90% of this. it’s not different from a fourth year med student who just “coasts” through the last 3 or 4 rotations of med school knowing for sure she will be a radiology resident (good hardworking student though she may be), it’s human nature. also, at the end of the day the pod student does not have to reckon with the juggernaut that is the usmle step 1 and residency competitiveness does not factor for you as much during those first two years as it might for say the ortho/ent/uro/plastics/derm hopeful who is trying for straight As and a 250 to improve his/her chances of getting in.
i agree with you though, if a service is needed and it takes 7 vs 11 yrs to train someone to provide that service then it’s a no-brainer. i think you’re also right that politics would not allow pod surg residencies to become md/do programs. my main push for integration is that this “exception” is only made for the foot. why dont optho or hand or breast surgeons or urologists start from day 1 in a seperate school and just do their specialized residency? i think it’s because medical education ignored the foot earlier on, now that we all see how imporant it is, should it not become an MD/DO residency just like anything else.
Confucius -
The reason pods are separate from everyone IS what you stated. In the late 1700′s, chiropody was separate from medicine and surgeons, as the doctors of the time looked down on treating aliments of the foot. Lewis Durlacher pushed to have the profession regarded as its own branch of medicine, as barbers were also in the business of shaving a callus or two.
As for pharm, path, and micro. I agree with you; pods will never have to utilize the majority of information that we are taught in those lectures. However, I think that that sentiment is shared across all specialized doctors.
Competitiveness for residencies is just as prevalent in pod schools as it is in med schools. All pod residencies are not created equal, and there is a shortage in positions right now.
Although I can’t comment on the USMLE, pods do take a part I, II, & III. Pods are required to regurgitate the same minutia that our colleagues are. Most pod students study USMLE First Aid books, in their entirety, for boards (at least part I).
I disagree with your argument when you say that we can’t share any similarities or equivalencies with our MD/DO counterparts, because our classes are inherently different. I also disagree with you about med school being the gorier, most vile way of becoming a doctor. Pod students work just as hard as med students. While you guys are taking your general medicine classes with your basic sciences, we are taking a close replica of your basic sciences, along with our speciality courses.
Well said DC… It is also important to understand that podiatry school basic sciences are not “inherently different” from our colleagues. In our 2 years of Pathology (systemic) and General Medicine, we are taught by Pathologists, IM’s, etc. who are usually also on med school faculty. They teach us the same info, of course sometimes adding “you guys may not see a lot of this, but you have to understand it and recognize it when it presents, especially if you are doing a surgery and…” Our pharm classes are taught by pharmacists specializing in different areas, our Micro and Immunology is taught by a renowned scientist affiliated with the CDC… The only classes DPM’s teach us are like biomechanics, pod med, and podiatric radiology. It is a common misconception that pod students only study the feet from day 1. Honestly, I was shocked that we spend so LITTLE time on the foot. On average, we have maybe 2-4 CREDITS a SEMESTER of a class or two specific to podiatric medicine, and even those classes deal with pathologic manifestations in the foot of systemic disease just as much as local injury or biomechanical problems. While naturally we may not be as accountable later on for certain diseases related to gyno or ophthamology for example (even though we still learn them), we have to know inside and out the manifestations and etiologies of all the diseases relating to neuro, vascular, derm, rheumatic, endocrine, etc., not only because they frequently manifest themselves in the lower extremity, but because we prescribe medications to treat all of these conditions… I think that is something else many people do not realize, that we treat systemic conditions affecting the feet, not just problems intrinsic to the foot… thus we obviously would need to be grilled and drilled on EVERYTHING… Now my last point: I have the utmost respect for all the doctorate degrees associated with medicine. I think it is extremely immature and unprofessional to put down optometry, dent, pod, Osteopathic, or even certain specialties like IM, by characterizing those that are in them as less intelligent or less talented. It is a relief that most of us in these professions respect each others talents and areas of expertise… I hope that those who tend to “bash” or are prejudiced against each others’ professions will wise up and grow up by the time they enter practice… Legitimate questions, of course, are certainly appropriate, whereas deragotory comments clearly are not. I personally chose podiatry because I thought it was a cool, very family-friendly field where you treat a lot of interesting problems manifested in the legs and feet, where you can do a lot of cool surgeries, really help a lot of people ragain mobility…. Even in the cases where we are just trimming toenails and debriding calluses, we get to spend a few quality minutes with the patient getting to know them, teaching them about their feet, and when they leave, they feel a million times better every step they take… Ive always found it a very rewarding field, with a lot of variety… just like many fields in healthcare…
well said respectful!! thank u for posting something that finally makes sense and is truly respectful.
so i cant believe i just put my name down haha. go me.
to DC
“sentiment is shared across all specialized doctors. “
- yes but until they know for certain they will be in that specialty, everyone’s attitude while the material is being presented (especially in first but even in second yr) is the same and that is learn general medicine, i “may” need to know this. pods on the other hand don;t have this issue. you “know” you are specializing from day 1 and my argument is that is has impact in the same way, we are less “gunner” in the latter half of fourth year when you “know” your specialty. i’m 100% sure you understood this argument before posting.
“Pods are required to regurgitate the same minutia that our colleagues are”
- come on now, you honestly think an attending on one of your IM clerkships will care if you don’t know what the risk factors for a hepatic adenoma are? i’m trying to have an honest and realistic discussion but I understand that when you’re arguing from a defensive position that can be difficult. do you think the average med student will get more or less heat from superiors for now knowing the “minutia” on their rotations than the average pod student? so where is the pressure? which is gorier? you really think it does not cross their minds that you won’t need to know most of this stuff and that they are just academic purists eager to fill you with all the medical knowledge they can. let’s talk real talk please. i was trying to be serious, this is getting silly now . . .
to respectful
“Legitimate questions, of course, are certainly appropriate”
okay, in a tertiary health care center, a guy comes in who has had their right foot amputated in the past hour. what role does the podiatrist play in this setting? (on average, so not what could or might happen but in most instances, what do you think will happen) because I keep hearing we do “EVERYTHING” with the foot. so you will perform the vascular surgery? reattach the nerves? bones? ligaments? tendons? and all this you can do after 3 yrs of residency? basically, if there are things regarding the foot that you cannot do or would not even be the primary person, I would like to know.
also, it doesn’t matter if you have bill gates teaching you a class on how to start a multi-billion dollar software company, the issue is do you care and why should you care? most students are not idealists, maybe you are. I am sure a school can hire nobel prize winners to teach any subject but that is not the point.
there is nothing derogatory in this but I don’t know why people keep dancing around arguments. nobody is denying you your place/niche/role/respect, it’s all yours and you have earned it. my only argument is that there are major differences that many pod students seem unwilling to accept – I am not extrapolating anything like inferior or less intelligent or whatever from these differences but I know that is what everyone is defensive about. you won’t acknowledge the differences because you are afraid of what they may be interpreted as. honestly, i can’t say I blame you because a lot of people do use these differences in that way
scope of practice for pods are different in most US states…most can’t even do foot or ankle surgery. just trim toenails. sorry.
anon 2,
are you mentally deficient in some way? really… really?
Confucius –
I cannot comment on the admonishment differences between podiatry students and medical students, nor would I be so bold as to try. When clinicians know that students have the same general understanding of disease processes, why would they not be held to the same standards as everyone else? I know of podiatry students who are pimped on the same level as all of the medical and osteopathic students that they rotate with.
“May” isn’t a definitive word, Confucius. I may have to know EVERYTHING I learn in pharmacology, as the lower extremity doesn’t exist in a space that is beyond the metabolism of CYP450, therefore changing the way you have prescribed a drug to our mutual patient. I may have to remember EVERYTHING I learn in pathology, as I rotate through multi-disciplinary hospitals that are aware of the systemic pathologies that I should have learned.
There is NO easy way of becoming a doctor anymore. If you don’t believe so, I would think you’re a bit delusional.
To Anon,
you clearly know nothing about podiatry… last time I checked, something like 44 states allowed surgery on the foot and ankle, and soft tissue up to the knee, some states even up to the hip… i know you don’t care, and you can’t even use correct grammar, but I am correcting you so that others do not share your ignorance… and thanks for saying “sorry” lol
Confuscius,
I think you raise some very logical points… by the way I am not defensive about your posts, and I am not dancing around your arguements, the post I left the other day was not specifically to you or anyone else, just my 2 cents… I can see why you may think that since our scope is limited to lower extremity, we would have no reason to know a lot about “hepatic adenoma” for example…. i know some of my classmates feel as you do about this… however we are taught info like this because we are responsible for all of that during residency. while you suggest that the attending docs couldn’t care less about if we knew a lot of systemic stuff, my conversations with residents over the past couple of years have led me to believe that pod students, at least in the high powered programs, are “pimped” just the same as medical students in all areas, and that the attending docs would get irritated if they they couldn’t perform at the same level… however, i am not a resident myself, and apparently neither are you, so we really can’t know for ourselves at this point… will pod students remember a lot of this stuff they won’t use throughout their whole lives… probably not… obviously you retain best what you use on a daily basis… I have an uncle who is an orthopod, specializing in spine, another uncle who is an ER doc, both say that everything they know and do now they learned in residency and fellowships… i don’t see how you or I will be any different… every doc does what they do, and each specialty is the best at what it does… in areas of overlap between specialties, then obviously comparison would have to be made on a case by case basis… I am confused as to why you think that you are trying to have a “realistic conversation” while some are just being “defensive”.. We are just telling you what our experience is… You know as well as I do that in today’s specialized health care environment, a lot of the details of the stuff you learn in med school you won’t directly apply much in your practice… however, you still have to do your rotations so you have to know it… we are no different than you, and so we learn a lot of stuff some might think is not applicable to our profession, but we do residencies and the same rotations, so do you think our schools would embarrass us and send us unprepared and ignorant into residency??
“you won’t acknowledge the differences”
Of course there are differences, we dont hit ophthamology or gyno as hard for example, but we kill lower anatomy, pathomechanics, lower arthropathies, etc. way more than you guys… i talked to a DO student the other day who didn’t know what Baxter’s nerve was… Im sure he has knowledge in other areas where I am ignorant, and thats fine since we have have totally different specialties. nobody knows everything.
Forgive the long post…
- Respectful
Well, I think you’re right about something I may have overlooked. At high power pod schools like you mentioned, expectations might be the same. I’d assume that is the standard most pod schools are aiming for and maybe it will be that way someday. I wouldn’t know but you would so I’ll take your word for it. My school does have a pod school and we only take anatomy with them (and score higher even on lower extremity exam) but for some reason they take many of the same courses we take but not with us, and my experience has been that their versions of our courses are less challenging so that’s part of where I’m coming from. So I still think most pod schools are like this even if not at the “high powered” ones. On average, I think med school is still more challenging until more pod schools get to where they are trying to be. Also you’re right we only recall what we use daily so I am not arguing about MD and DPM attendings, just students and on average if we are really under equivalent challenges and difficulties. We will all be professionals in our own Fields eventually.
– DC
don’t call me delusional, it’s not polite. You may be the best student in the country and know more medicine than every med student. Good for you. We all have been in school for a while so my argument is about human nature and not you, stellar student though you may be. I am going to try this for the third time – after match day most med students seem to put less effort in their rotations. Like my buddy said to me, “at this point, none of this matters. This is my argument DC. the day you matriculate you know you are specialist, and as a student myself, I can’t see the same level of enthusiasm and drive for stuff I will hardly need, compared to someone who until 3rd or 4th year thinks they really need to use. I’m not doubting you in your pod classes but seriously if I was a pod student, P450 inducing drugs can kiss my. . .
– Any Podiatry Student/Resident
I asked a question earlier about a guy whose leg gets chopped off. I am still curious to know the answer, you can scroll up and read it fully. DC can you help with that one?
it is obvious that podiatry students are inferior to medical students in terms of intelligence. grades and standardized test scores are there for a reason. however, depending on the effort put forth during training, they turn out to be quite similar in terms of clinical skill in their respective specialties.
there are internal medicine groups in my hospital. in a single group, there’s a guy who trained at harvard for undergrad, med school, and residency, a guy from india who trained in a dinky community hospital, and an american guy who went to the caribbean and did residency in a dinky community hospital. in terms of patient care, they are all equal, and this is the general concensus among all the surgeons in my department as well as other physicians i have spoken with. you will see this as the case with most medical groups in all specialties. take that for whatever it is worth.
The Case of a Pod Student…Why I Chose Podiatry
. Yeah, that sucked. Also, especially when it comes to routine foot care, or a particularly nasty ulcer (where u might see a patient weekly or every 2 wks), the doctors get to know their patients. It’s pretty much a gabfest while you’re working on a patient’s feet, and many patient’s tell u their life story. Some people may not like that (it can be interesting, boring, or flat out depressing)- I, of course, loved it. Most of the patients were elderly or middle aged with diabetes, but some also were younger with injuries that needed casting or surgery. I saw patients react with the good news of having an ulcer healed, and I saw patients break down and lose it when reality sunk in that they were likely going to lose part of their foot. I was shocked when we would find out that a patient had passed away from one of their other ailments (podiatric patients usually have diabetes, circulation problems, etc). Thus, I liked podiatry, and of course during my shadowing days I had found out that they also make six figures, which was cool with me. I felt it was a rewarding field with good hours (oh, and I forgot to mention that I am female who worked with a female doctor that had kids, so I’m sure she was a big influence on me), that I could do a variety of things (including surgery), that I was not going to have to be on call all of the time (yay!), and that I was going to get into a pod school as is, with no problem. Well, I was right, I got interviewed at what I thought was the best school very quickly and was accepted. I thought the interview was easier than my pre-med committee interview at undergrad, lwhich I actually wanted my interview to be harder (I was like, that was it? where were all the challenging questions?). Upon being accepted I knew that my GPA was way higher than average for acceptance into pod school, and my MCAT (much to my internal cringing) was about average. I honestly wish they would make it tougher to get in, but it was what it was. Many of my podschool counterparts have MCATs and GPAs lower than me, but they are very hard workers, but if you’re a good doctor, what does it matter? It doesn’t take a genius to be a doctor, there are actually some very smart doctors out there who are not considered to be good docs (dont care about patient, only money, no bedside manner, etc) I had friends that were accepted into med school, and I had friends that retook their MCATs and made it into med school. I decided that I didn’t want to do that, and that I was happy with going to podiatry school.Some may say I settled, but it had become what I wanted to do, I actually liked it. I know that’s hard for some people to understand, but in the end it’s about what you want, what you will be happy doing. That said, I’m in my third year now, and while I’m sure it is not as challenging as an MD program would be, but it has been far more difficult than I thought it would be, lol.
So, I had always wanted to do something in healthcare, but was never quite sure what I wanted to do. The typical story. Being Asian, my mom wanted me to be a doctor…naturally. I wasn’t sure if that was what I wanted to do, so when I enrolled at undergrad I was pre-nursing. My aunt, also asian and a pharmacist, called me weekly to convince me to do pharmacy, but my father is a pharmacist and I wasn’t the least bit interested. There were alot of turn-offs to nursing for me, so I switched to pre-med. Through most of college I still didn’t really know what I wanted to do, I also was debating doing dentistry, I just didn’t know what was the best fit, you know? I am a very happy person in general, very laid back, and I could see myself being happy doing almost anything in healthcare. I’ve never had any specific dreams of being a brain surgeon or anything like that. I was very involved, and a pretty decent student, graduating with a 3.7 GPA as a bio major at UT Austin (which is not bad, but it’s no 4.0, but arguably decent for med school). I must confess, I did not study for my MCAT (I looked over some practice passages, but time spent on it was very minimal compared to any class I took), and got an I-told-u-not-to-drink-those from the roommate when I got a 22. I knew this was no good for med school (very crappy score!), but I did not have that crazy sense of urgency to retake it. I didn’t have the MCAT freakout, but I’m not one to freak out. I do believe that if I were to study and put forth some effort into MCAT preparation that I would have done much better, and that I would have gotten into med school. Maybe not Harvard, lol, but there are some MD and DO schools that I would have made it into. Thus, I had a sucky MCAT score, and was not sure what I wanted to do about it.
An older friend mentioned podiatry to me, and I’ll be honest, I had never heard of it. So, I shadowed a podiatrist, and the first case I saw was a dude who was a fresh post-op from a transmetatarsal amputation. He had run over his foot with a lawn mower, and waited til it turned all sorts of colors before finally going to a doctor. This, is when I realized that podiatrists do surgery..*wha?!*…and I thought it was awesome! I did see alot of nail trimming of some funky nails and callus shavings, but I also saw some people with smelly, digusting, crazy holes on the bottom of their feet…and it didn’t bother me. I thought it was so interesting, I had no idea about woundcare. When a doctor would tell a patient about me being interested in podiatry (which at the time was only kinda true, lol), the patient would tell me all kinds of cheesy things about how they used to have an ulcer a few years ago and the doctor saved their foot, or how they couldn’t walk b/c they’re bunions were so bad (hehe, just sounds funny) but that the doctor had helped them be able to walk again and carry on with their lives. I know, total cheese, but I loved it. The podiatrist worked M-F 9-5, and had nothing but surgeries on wednesday. I went and watched a few, and I loved it. I thought the mix of surgeries, wound care, and more trivial stuff was a nice mix indeed. I eventually worked as a med assistant at that office over the summer, and found out that most of the nail trimming was the job of the assistant
Podiatrists are doctors of the foot and ankle, the end. To say that they are better than orthos at the foot and ankle would not really be a statement that could be made, because the orthos that specialize in the foot and ankle (not too many of these) know their share . That said, most orthos in general do not mess around with the foot and ankle region much, and at the podiatrist office that I worked at we often got many referrals from local orthos who simply did not want to deal with or were not as familiar in dealing with certain foot surgeries. Orthos do all kinds of surgeries, but when it comes to bunionectomies, who do you think does the most? Podiatrists. Does it make us better? No, but with certain conditions of the foot we have more experience b/c we deal solely with the foot and ankle. I think that is what some people are trying to say. Referrals may be looked at as one man’s trash being another’s treasure by some, too, lol. That bunion may not be a big enough deal for the ortho, but it can be a debilitating condition for a patient nonetheless. Podiatrists certainly have their own niche in the medical field, and yes, they are doctors too. Let’s be mature about this, is it really possible to be a surgeon without being considered a physician? Or is surgery just a hobby of a podiatrist? lol. Podiatrists are physicians of the foot, it is what it is. We may never have the glory of a cardiac surgeon, but let’s face it, this squabbling about MDs vs DOs vs DPMs helps no one, and the facts are that we will all have patients and situations when we will need to work together for the optimal benefit of the patient.
Bickering will get us nowhere, and it is really just a waste of time (what will it achieve?) and is a poor attitude b/c it takes focus away from treating patients. There are bigger things to worry about in healthcare! I am now done with my rambling, lol this is long as hell & I’m not editiing it so, I hope I helped at least one person gain insight into why I chose podiatry, as there were not as many rainbows and butterflies in my story as in the above article
Let us not lose sight, for we have the same goal
Podstudent,
I really liked your story. You are very honest and I respect your decisions completely.
I was not lying about scope of practice. Why hide this fact. Some podiatrists cannot do surgery in these states. Stop hiding the truth. Until there is a uniform scope of practice, there will be no respect for pods capabilities.
respectful you are not respectful. SORRY.
anon2,
Either you are lying or you pulled that information out of your ass. Show your sources.
And who are you to talk about respect? Are you a medical doctor or other health professional in the field or just another student?
All the DOs commenting negatively is cracking me up! I hate to tell you guys, but everyone has heard of podiatrists. Everyone has heard of MDs. No one in your entire hometown has ever heard of a DO! Get off your high horse because it’s actually very short… there is no prestige at all associated with a DO degree… but have fun explaining for the 5122nd time that you really are a “physician” and not a holistic herb-peddler.
anon2,
while podiatrists surgical scope may differ between some states, podiatrists can still do surgery in every state. in a few states, the ankle is not part of the scope, but joints distal to it are allowed… as i said before, MAINSTREAM podiatric medicine includes foot and ankle surgery, in like 44 states… i apologize if you think i am disrespecting you.. i am not sure why you have such a negative attitude towards our profession, and why you claim that we hide the truth, just because we point out the blatent flaws in your biased posts. you seem to be one who likes to be treated with respect, while being able to put others down.
abdullah ahmad,
i agree with almost everything you said, and i am glad that you pointed out that the amount of work put forth in clinical training is what determines the quality and skill of the doctor. i would only suggest to you however that using “blanket” and generalizing statements, such as “pod students are inferior to medical students in terms of intelligence” is pretty unfair. MCAT and GPA are not indicators of “intelligence” as much as they are of hard work… for example, my last 3 years of college i had a 4.0, where as the first 2 semesters i had no idea what i wanted to do, and i was young and immature and goofed off during that part of my college experience. i ended up graduating with a 3.5, thanks to 2 bad semesters (of very easy classes i might add)… i think i am probably as “intelligent” as the average medical student who had a 3.8 in college. I couldve gone to DO school, and some MD schools, but there wasnt a specialty i could think of that i wanted to do more than podiatry. Its just a great lifestyle, and family friendly, and interesting. The majority of podiatry students have the credentials to get in medical school somewhere, but honestly many chose podiatry simply because they didnt want to deal as much with death and dieing people.
Facts about pod vs MD/DO
Argument 1: Pod is just as competitive during training as MD/DO since they take same/similar classes and they work hard.
False – Competitiveness and toughness is all relative. Pods might take the same classes and think they work as hard, but they will never know how bad 1st/2nd year of med school is like unless they take both curriculum, so equating the two is nonsense. For those who say you take classes with MD/DO’s, that’s probably a sign that the med school is low low tier. Toughness is also associated with competitiveness. A high-tier med school will be tougher than a low-tier med school even though the curriculum is similar because most schools grade on a curve so the student in the harder school will have to study more than the easier school to stay on top of his/her class. Thus, med schools are innately tougher and more rigorous because their students are smarter (higher MCAT vs. avg Pod MCAT of low 20s) and thus the competition is higher making it tougher to succeed. Give me 50 pod students and 50 med students, put them in the same 2 year curriculum, and see who comes out on top. Enough said about that.
Argument 2: Pods also take board exams that test the same stuff
False: You can’t equate pod exams w/ USMLE. Give me 100 pods taking the USMLE and see how many pass vs 100 MDs.
Is Western University, Des Moines University, and Midwestern University @ Arizona low tier DO schools? Is Chicago Medical School low tier? I don’t have a point…I’m actually curious if they are or not.
respectful:
GPA and MCAT ARE a good rep of intelligence. Higher ranked schools have students w/ higher GPA/MCAT than low tier schools. Of course there are exceptions when someone like urself gets a low GPA but really is intelligent, but on average, higher scores = smart.
I want to say to you all that are still young and going through the first few years of med school/podiatry, or whatever..at some point, you need to overcome yourself. What I mean by that is, when a person chooses a certain field, there are certain reasons behind that choice, of which are really no ones business. Putting each other down for going to schools outside of medical school (i.e.: chiropractic, podiatry), is pointless. I know some in medical schools that may not have had the highest GPA, but are successful because they have the ability for the job, and there are certainly some individuals in non-MD/DO programs that have greater ability than some in those programs. The point is, at some point you will need to interact and need to respect each other in your own right. The patient doesn’t care where you went to school, they care about how well you do you job. Don’t spend time putting each other down or worrying about this or that; you need to worry about yourself and what you want to accomplish (i.e. residency). As you will come to see, you will know proficiency when you see it, and surprisingly, you may find a lack of it with your own MD counterparts in residency or practice. The title of physician is meaningless. It is a word. Your own title as a doctor, has meaning, but you are the one who gives it meaning. No matter what field you are in (i.e. DPM, MD, DO, DC, DDS..), you are a doctor, and there is no room to discriminate. Everyone knows the MD’s job, and there is no room for superiority complexes in the real world, with real patients, with real diseases, with their well being on the line. You get the title by getting grades. Earn it once you leave, and learn to interact professionally with each other.
The article is just sugar-coated and tactful. The reality is that one goes to podiatry school if s/he doesn’t have a good MCAT score. I haven’t seen anyone who goes to podiatry school with MCAT above 30.
What irritates me is that most of the people here bashing podiatry are probably either premed or in med school now, not doctors yet. In 10 years from now, do you really think anyone is going to give a sh*t what you got on your MCATs? Or what your college GPA was? I doubt any MD or DO on these forums are making such ignorant statements as the one above me. I am still in college, but I can at least remain open minded about every medical profession and understand that yes podiatry has lower stats, but to actually pass podiatry school and a residency program is MUCH different from just being accepted. The intelligent individuals that frequent this website should know the difference, but I guess they don’t.
Rob said “While people say the scope is small, show me another doctor that sees all age ranges from infant to geriatric and treats all problems from dermatology to biomechanics.”
Yeah, it’s called doctor of veterinary medicine.
electrophile,
Yes. You are correct. But I think its safe to assume everyone on here was talking about human medicine.
blah:
I don’t get that you characterize our curriculum as less challenging and point out that we pod students will never know how hard MD/DO classes are, since we don’t take them (and the ones we do take with them.. well they dont really count right?? because they are lower tier??) And you are a med student I am assuming??… but you HAVE taken the podiatry curriculum, so YOU would know how to compare them right?? Of course I am sure someone as smart as yourself can see the hypocrisy… according to my professors, the classes I take in common with MD students (which these professors teach) are comparable… so thats what I am basing my opinion on… if it is true or not, I dont really care, as long as I am prepared for my own career… and of course you are right about the trends… my point of view (and the point of view of a lot of my classmates who are exceptions) is that its annoying when people come on and say things which generalize the entire profession, and all students in it, just because of certain trends… i trust that you arent one to do this though yourself… it is true that most pods wouldnt do as well on MD boards, because we do have differences in curriculum… but how well would you do our lower extremity or biomechanics sections? how well would an MD do on the dental boards?? Does this mean that one is better than the other?? If people want to focus on lower extremity problems, do a lot of interesting procedures, and have a good lifestyle, then podiatry is the best field… if not, then they should definitely go somewhere else… no one can argue with that…i dont understand why students such as yourself (if you even are an MD student) seem so intent on “ranking” one group as superior to the others… why do you care??
it is also annoying when people come in and put down the profession itself, the actual work, the job, the day to day stuff, based on things like scope of practice being only the lower extremity, or mcat averages of schools or stuff like that that has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on the day to day activities of the job… I mean come on, who chooses podiatry if they dont want to treat lower extremity conditions?? If I wanted to check peoples breasts and testicles for lumps, or prescribe antipsychotics, or do tilt table tests, I wouldnt have done this… I just wish people would get off our backs about why we entered this field… luckily the only people who “bash” podiatry for the reasons i have mentioned are insecure haters, who arent in the exact place they want to be, and so need to put others down to make themselves feel better…
Someone:
… Midwestern also has a great pod school, and a great DO program. I personally dont know much about Western
Des Moines and Chicago are arguably the 2 best podiatry schools (i said arguably…) Des Moines is one of the top DO schools, and Chicago has an oustanding MD program (this is contrary to what you might have interpreted from the comments of “blah”, who apparently knows all the rankings
Matt:
Wonderful comment… couldn’t agree more…
respectful,
You are right! I did a quick search for MCAT rankings of DO schools and what I found is hilarious. Guess who ranks in the top 4 of MCAT averages?? #1: western, #2 and #3: Midwestern (both chicago and arizona campus), #4: Des Moines.
hmmm….interesting…
as a practicing podiatric surgeon, i can say, i could count the number on my hand with fingers left over of real foot/ankle surgeons who I would send my family members to with real in-patient hospital experience. The pod school courses are watered down, no USMLEs, your competition is other pod students (who most have very low MCATs, low GPAS, and from low-tier undergrads). that is a fact. one pod school solicits DAT student who failed to get into dental school. IF pod. school is MEDICAL school ONLY accept the MCAT–why the GMAT, GREs, DATs, etc.???? All the phony BS PR rhetoric will not change an inherently flawed graduate school model of education and business model. Pods are redundant, very inconsistent training, and residencies are hit/miss with little research breadth, real journal articles in something other than the JAMPA/JAFS magazines. Podiatry needs to be a field in ACGME period. Pod colleges are obsolete, and having podiatric medicine/surgery as a real MD/DO speciality is the only way to go to ensure rigor, consistency and students who are not frat boys and know medicine inside/out.
Temple (PCPM) accepts DAT, GREs and MCATs. Why GREs and DATS???? If pod school is medical school why accept business school entrance exams and dentistry school entrance exams? Why such wide array of entrance exams–is that b/c pod schools have trouble drumming up “applicants?” Do MD schools have recruiters and direct marketing strategies? Or cartoons purporting the bogus 40 hr work week lie or the diversity of practice lie, or the integral member of the health team lie?
A while ago, one pod schoo had students take the USMLE, they bombed it, we think it was in the 90′s. Perhaps, the schooling is more rigorous now 2009. However, taking podiatry on-line 1 hour part 1 and 2 is a JOKE. Take the USMLE part 1 as REQUIRED for MDs. No back-door entry allowed. You want to be a doctor/physician–do it the right way.
John
I agree that Podiatry should require the MCAT, however the kids who got good MCATs don’t go to Pod school, they go to MD/DO so why not get the rest. Most GRE, DAT etc students perform just as well or even better than the low MCAT kids.
As for the USMLE, we have our own boards and we would not mind taking the USMLE, but why take it if we can not get the ACGME residencies.
MCAT attempts to assess ability in medical school courses/thinking/didactic abilities. MCATs must be required by ALL podiatry schools. When I applied to pod. school; they ONLY accepted MCATs. Not DATs, GREs, GMATs and other nonsense not pertaining to medical school; rather business school rejects and dental rejects. One student was even a chiro. reject?!?
If podiatry aspires to be called`physicians’ then they must start being educated like one. Pretty sad that podiatry cannot get students who really want to be foot/ankle surgeons or genl. podiatrists without stooping to get bottom of barrel business and dental school rejects. Why can’t the profession sell itself by the interest in LE medicine?
Podiatric medicine must be assimilated by allopathic medicine. Boards by ABMS, USMLEs (not 1-hour on-line “exams”) stringent in-training residency exams, consistent residency training for all. This cannot be achieved by the dinosaurs in charge who enjoy the status sorry quo. Too many politics, and too many sad sacks who are chiropodists and do not want to see the profession progress to being an MD speciality by ACGME. Podiatry schools will become obsolete, and will go out of business. Foot and ankle surgeons will be the podiatric surgical provider by those completing a brutal 5 year ortho residency then a 1 year fellowship in foot/ankle surgery/medicine.
John,
All but i think 2 schools are MCAT only now. And no one takes the GMAT.
I do not know anything about the current board exams so I cannot comment on that specifically but there is a push for pods to take the USMLE. I’m pretty sure that Western U will require their DPM students to take the USMLE.
The standard is now a 3 year surgical residency. Few people do 2 years and close to none do any less.
Just curious…what year did you graduate from pod school? I just want to get a little perspective on where you are coming from.
John,
you seem to be quite disgruntled… all the things you are complaining about, have actually been changing the last 10 years or so especially… such as standardized surgical residency training, harder curriculum’s, integrated with medical schools… are you not aware of this? the trends in podiatry right now are mostly all going in the right direction, we are considered physicians in medicare and most likely soon medicaid as well… im not trying to sugar coat things, and theres a lot of room in podiatry for better doctors, but honestly I think you are misjudging the current status of most residency programs and school curriculums these days. are you not familiar with the whole vision 2015 idea? most of what you are complaining about is adressed in there. yes it is true that several of my classmates were at first wanting to get into dental school (many had no idea what podiatry was), and some came here because they couldnt get in MD or dental school, but those that put their hearts into do great… at the end of the day, if they work hard, it doenst matter at all if podiatry was their first choice or not… do you feel that as a podiatrist, you are not an integral part of the healthcare team? the pods i know at home and around my school are very busy and get a large number of referrals from other doctors… also several work for orthopedic groups and do all the foot and ankle stuff… the two people who introduced me to podiatry were actually internists. granted im a student, and not a doctor like you, but ive never been given the impression that podiatrists in general are not considered an integral part of the healthcare system. im just confused as to why if you are a surgeon, and successful, you would seem so unhappy with the field… what time frame were you applying to school? a chiro reject?? wow… last time i checked you need like a 2.25 to get into chiro school… pretty sure nobody in my class had that gpa in college. i will agree with you though john, that i think a decent sized minority of the students accepted into podiatry schools may not give podiatry the best name… but i think every field has those among themselves.. we can only be responsible for ourselves
thank you for your comments. spent over 158,000 in student loans. i speak the truth. been through an academic 3 year program, graduated from top tier undergrad, MCAT 29R, went to PCPM. Schools should NOT be accepting dental school rejects. that is embarassing. Dental school?? If podiatrists want to call themselves ‘physicians’ then get physician training, and not opting for the backdoor of medicine. Idealistic happy talk purported by political organizations does not change facts.
podiatric medicine was my first choice. problem is that the old guard and political APA does not embrace change. they embrace nepotism, cronyism, and buddy system. anything that rocks capsizes the boat is scary to podiatrists as they are allied medicine and happy to get anything, crumbs and all.
all the mission statement/programs podiatry 5000 means squat unless CHANGE is enacted. They were talking that PR rhetoric when I was a student–nothing changes. remember the 1995 20/20 podiatry expose, or the MD costa rica program, or APA’s statements about MD changes, or PMD?!?! all defunct, never heard from again, and no real change, same poor caliber applicants, inconstistent training, and joke boards. ONE hour on-line part 1 and 2???? that is crazy–and student’s think they are “physicians.”?
USMLES part 1 REQUIRED for passage to year 3 of Pod school
first two years IDENTICAL to US medical students at US medical schools.
ACGME oversight of podiatric medical/surigcal residencies
surgical/medical rigorous in-training exams required for all resident
board certification by the ABMS
2 tracks=general podiatry and foot/ankle surgery similar to dentistry and OMFS.
When did you graduate?
Change has happened. I believe as of this year 3 year residencies are the minimum.
One hour part 1 and part 2? Are you sure? Part 1 is like 205 questions…that’s a lot to stuff into a 1 hour exam!
first 2 years are identical at 2 schools, 1st year is identical at 1 other school.
theres a part 3 of boards taken after 1st year residency now. Also towards the end of your 3rd year residency you must take the ABPS board exam to become board qualified. Then you have several years to compile a certain number of each procedure to become board certified.
Things are changing and have CHANGED.
Again, When did you graduate?
“first 2 years are identical at 2 schools, 1st year is identical at 1 other school.”
- I meant identical to DO schools…they sit side by side with DO. Same time, tests, curves, etc.
john
there arent as many dental school rejects as you imply. and those that are still had good credentials, just didnt make it to dental school usually because they werent residents, and dental school is super super super competitive these days since its the short path with equal to better pay. i agree with most of the changes you propose. your assessment of the boards being an hour long and such is completely inaccurate however, it apparently was that way when you graduated. i think you wouldve been pleased with the difficulty level of the boards the last few years. also, training is now pretty much standardized, and applicant quality is rising (slowly but surely). Im just curious as to why you think that all the pod students coming out now are such idiots… was everyone in your class an idiot or something? many kids in my class got accepted to DO schools at least and what not, but most such as myself had no interest… i consider podiatrists to be foot and ankle physicians… i mean we are what we are… a good podiatrist is the best at what he does, just like any specialty… do you consider yourself a surgeon, but not a physician? I think you have some great ideas about what the future should look like for us, and i hope that a lot of what you say does happen sooner rather than later (or at all)… but why all the negativity on your own career choice? We all know that podiatry is not intended to be a BACK DOOR into medicine, its just intended to be a discipline dealing with lower extremity disease, and i think MOST students these days view it that way… should it have been an MD specialty from the beginning??? Perhaps, but at this point that seems irrelevant. I think you might be listening too much to a bitter F/A orthopod… there are definitely some inconsistencies in podiatry, but most are being resolved. You seem to really despise your profession, and in my opinion, underestimate its value. I do not mean any of this in an insulting way… all I knew about podiatry in the beginning (from other MD’s and pods that i shadowed) were positive things, but i am extremely surprised at how much negativity surrounds it on these student forums…
John,
I just have to wonder again… you can prescribe a whole host of medications, and you treat just about any simple or complex problem in the foot/ankle through conservative or surgical means, you did a three year hospital surgical residency in which you rotated throughout most (if not all) specialties, you can do joint fusions, skin grafts, etc… and yet after all this, do you not consider yourself a foot and ankle Physician?? I’m just curious
Thanks for your comments. I graduated from PCPM in 1997, did a three-year academic surgical residency from a prestigous hospital. Many in my class were not motivated in foot/ankle medicine/surgery. Rather, they were MD/DO/DC/DDS rejects; quite sad b/c podiatric medicine was not their true interest/advocation. They were forced into loving it b.c of the lab coat and ‘dr’ title.
The residency I went to many including attendings, residents, fellows (DPMS) were all too happy to eat crumbs, be 2nd class citizens than learn medicine. they obscessed about bunions, callouses, and nails. rather than learning endocrinology (for all those diabetics, or inflammation cascades for all those LE infections–little medicine alot of chiropody–even at a 3-year program. rather than perform meaningful surgery, they performed cosmetic bunions, pinochio surgery–bringing in diabetics multiple times for $$$$ than doing definitive sx.
In the ER, LisFranc’s fx. were sent to ortho, and ingrown nails sent to podiatric medicine. That is pathetic. Could you imaging a LeForte fx. being sent to a general surgeon , rather than the OMFS resident?
Podiatry is all too often happy to eat crumbs, our attendings did not publish in real journal, nor perform federally funded research, (most “drug” company/dealer “research”–heavily biased/skewed), and the residency was on probation for lack of didactic instruction/adhering to the standards set by the CPME. the good ol’ network protected the program instead of terminating the ‘chief’, the ‘director’ etc… Our “chief” learned surgery from the sports ortho fellow–how sad. how can one be chief and need to take lessons from a trainee??
We certainly appreciate what organized podiatry is trying to do to legitimize the profession and equate it to physicians MD/DO, however, to do this, one must have earned admission via great GPAs, MCATS, excellent tier undergrad, and USMLEs part 1, not an on-line 1-hour exam. In-training residency exams analogous to MDs/DOs trainees.
IF podiatry schools are “identical” in the first two years, then take and PASS the USMLE part 1. that would be a terrific start. All the BS political rhetoic via the APA, and ACFAS, is nonsense. What matters is what the MD/DOs think b.c they MAKE the rules hospital/clinics and otherwise.
Moreover, I did not spend $158,000 (first generation college student-no help from trust fund, parents, grandpa), to spend the majority of my time clipping/trimming dead skin/nails. That is what a pedicurist is for. IF I am truly a ‘physician’, then why can’t I admit my own patients, or take STSG to put over FHB for a diabetic? Or take a graft from ASIS to place into the talus (astragulus)–w/o consulting ortho–that is a joke. Corns/callouses/cosmetic bunions/hammers/and some dead skin trimming for 4+4+3= 11 years of schooling/training and expensive board exams to spend most of our time being a pedicurist or going to nursing homes?! being a tootsie twiddler. Do not mean to bash, but facts are facts; we will not pour honey over dog faeces–it is what it is. Rea ispa loquitor.
For those of you reading this that may be interested in podiatry as a career choice and have stumbled across this discussion while researching:
Take the time to shadow a few pods to make a decision for yourself. You’re going to find both happy and disgruntled workers in any given field. As with any other profession there are positives and negatives about the field of podiatry. Is it worth deciding against a profession solely on the negatives? I wouldn’t say so. Take the time to weigh it out. What if the positives outweigh the negatives? What if a “dental school reject” can find happiness and success in a field he may not have known about? Is that a bad thing?
You may be surprised to find quite a few podiatrists that are very happy with where they are in life. I’ve met plenty. You may also find a few (such as John) that have complaints about the profession and feel they made a mistake. I’ve met a couple of those.
We could spend all day long arguing over the negative aspects of the field. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. What makes one man happy might not make another man happy.
Do your research, shadow a pod, make an educated decision. You owe it to yourself.
John,
You mention all these things that you, as a DPM, are not able to do. From the training you have received, going through podiatry school and completing a 3 year surgical residency, are you ABLE to do everything that you mentioned you are not ALLOWED to do?
If your answer is YES, then what is holding you back is the laws or your state or the rules of that hospital. They must not be up to date on what DPMs are ABLE to do and thus limit what DPMs are ALLOWED to do. If your answer is YES then can I ask you to voice your concerns to your state and/or hospital? By doing so you can be part of the change and help yourself and/or help others like me who might be in your position in the coming years.
If you answer is NO, then it seems that you may have gone into this profession for the wrong reasons and/or you were tricked into pursuing podiatry.
Please let me know your answer.
For those of you who do not believe that a lot has changed in podiatry in the past 10 years then visit this website: http://medicine.yale.edu/ortho/patient/podiatry.aspx
“The Podiatry Service of Orthopaedics and Rehabilitation offers comprehensive foot care by board certified podiatric foot and ankle surgeons. These medically and surgically trained podiatrists are available to care for children and adult patients. The Yale Sports Medicine Center offers podiatric sports medicine including Dayton type sports orthotics. The Diabetic Foot Center specializes in wound care and diabetic foot reconstruction. The Friday Foot clinic sees all types of complex foot problems including pediatric and adult foot deformities. The Yale-New Haven Hospital Primary Care center offers primary podiatric care for their patients. The Podiatric clinical faculty maintain a close working relationship with their Orthopaedic and Vascular Surgery colleagues.
Among special services offered are:
* Diabetic foot care and reconstruction
* Treatment of fractures and foot trauma
* Foot surgery
* General foot care
* Orthotics and biomechanics
Yale Faculty:
* Martin Pressman, D.P.M, FACFAS, Assistant Clinical Professor, Podiatry Service Chief”
Yes thats right. Podiatry at Yale. And as you can see at the bottom…YALE FACULTY. A podiatrist is ASSISTANT CLINICAL PROFESSOR at Yale medical school.
THanks again for your kind remarks and thoughtful inquiries.
I have fought very hard on behalf of qualified general pods and foot/ankle surgeons, and qualified, earnest resident to earn the privl. at hospitals, rigorous/grueling traing (in-house patient management, rounding at 5AM-that is a surgeon), insulin orders, med orders, clearing patients for sx, H/Ps, ACLS certification, crash team, publishing in real journals, etc.. day surgical facitilities priv., clinics etc….then ran into a brick wall with regard to the old school pods who have unfortunately have engrained in the medical (MD/DO) staff’s/committees mind of the “typical” podiatrist. The PODS feel intimated, want autonomy and enjoy the status quo. Heard them saying at a ACFAS conference, that many would not have done podiatry b/c of the politcs involved, and the lack of consistency of training/.schooling. The APA leadership is clueless setting up another surgical committee distanting themselves from ACFAS, further convoluting/muddying the waters. Join with AOFAS otherwise, podiatry will remain podiatry. Rea ipsa loquitor.
The problem is that like the APA states, 50 states with 50 DIFFERENT scopes unlike MDs. You have derogatory formal statements being espoused by the AMA. You have orthos who control the hospitals. Yes, as a resident you MAY do bimalleolar fx, or triples, or LisFrancs, reconstructive diabetic salvage, etc….but unless you travel to the hinder lands of GA, or some other part of an obscure state, you will not be performing what you should be performing. the majority of your work regardless of years in residency will be spent–trimming, debriding, nail polish for fungus, decallousing people, and pasting pads on feet for 11-12 yrs of “training.” That is a pedicurist, not a physician.
The vision 5000 whatever rhetoric the APA is espousing is something regurgitated from decades ago–this has all been done before. Hiring PR firms, greater public/medical knowledge of pods, forcing MDs to think DPMs have similar training/schooling. all to no avail.
Start simple: PASSING USMLE step 1 for entrace into 3 yr at ALL podiatry schools, MCATs required at ALL pod schools, GPA high, high-tier undergrads, smaller classes, FULL amalgamation with MD schools. Not watered down classes, or similar classes, same classes, same exams, same bar, otherwise, podiatry will remain podiatry.
I brought all of this up at meetings, formal testimony, etc…., and my main enemies have been pods, NOT MDs. What are pods/pod politicians so afraid of. IF you are a physician-then go through identical tracts. Otherwise, we can argue till the wee hours of the morning that monkeys and humans are similar and yes in some respects they are, but at the end of the day they are not human.
Also, to further answer your questions: I can do trimalleolar, bimalleolar, ankles, grafts, tendon transfers, muscle transfers, traumas, full scope foot/ankle surgery in the tertiary hospital setting. fully trained with very complex in-house patient management of patients with multiple co-morbities. Ext. experience with ACLS, crash teams, prednisone tapers, vanco, linezolid, digoxin, EKG adept at level of an internist etc…However, what is the point of all this raining if one cannot perform what they trained for?
Thank you John for your very thorough response.
I can tell that you are a properly trained podiatric surgeon. I can also tell that you are frustrated. Change is happening in podiatry. There are legitimate research being done now…just look up Dr. Armstrong. Stats are going up…Scholl is ~3.3gpa and 25mcat, DMU is ~3.4gpa 23mcat, AZPod is 3.4-3.5gpa. 7/9 schools take only MCAT. The California Board of Podiatry now allows the USMLE to be taken in place of the NBPME(pod boards)…setting up the stage for Western University’s DPM program, which will sit side by side with DO for all 4 years, to take the USMLE.
Things are changing. I know you mentioned that the biggest hurdle you have faced are the older pods, surely these guys will be retiring soon. Look below for the APMA vision 2015.
VISION 2015:
O1. Evaluate and ensure that podiatric medical education is comparable to that of allopathic and osteopathic physicians.
O2. Demonstrate to the entire health care community that the education, training, and experience of a podiatric physician are comparable to that of allopathic and osteopathic physicians.
O3. Obtain state and federal government recognition that podiatrists are physicians.
O4. Market and promote podiatrists as physicians.
O5. Attract high quality applicants to colleges of podiatric medicine and thereby to the profession.
O1. Evaluate and ensure that podiatric medical education is comparable to that of allopathic and osteopathic physicians.
They even address the scope issue that you mentioned.
O3.2 Revise State Practice Laws
State laws need to be changed to include podiatric physicians in the physician scope of practice within a uniform scope of practice. This process will require significant legislative and regulatory change. State components will need to be very active in moving this effort forward. Of the many activities associated with the overall goal of Vision 2015, this one may be the most arduous task. The State Advocacy Committee should help promulgate these initiatives.
I know that as a student I do not know the ins and outs of the profession but from reading your concerns and reading the APMA vision 2015…they are almost identical. The new generation of podiatrists…those with the same training and same mindset as yourself…are gaining power within the APMA. Please do not become frustrated and stop pushing for what you know you are able to do as a podiatric surgeon.
Anyone correct me if I’m wrong here…but for those who don’t believe there will ever be equality for podiatrists, didn’t it take a long time for DO’s to get parity with MD’s? It was probably considered witchcraft 50 years ago, and yet at least in the US they do exactly the same things besides learning OMM. Why is it so hard to believe that this stuff takes lots of time?
There are many MDs that I would not trust flushing a toilet or sharpening a pencil. Both USA and IMGs. ‘MD’ does NOT bestow intelligence, nor thinking abilities. But, it does sure make life easier in terms of professional achievement and application to hopsitals/clinics/jobs…..
In order to ensure viability, and rigorous training which is consistent and meritorous of a physician-we MUST take the same classes, same boards, and be under the same auspices as the MDs. It is vitally impt. to ensure the very best care of our patients and be “equals” in the eyes of other MDs and hospital boards who determine priveledges.
thanks again, great questions, and though provoking themes.
Thanks John. Your experience and input has been really helpful. As someone who is going to be starting podiatry school next year I found your thoughts and concerns to be really helpful in preparing me for my future. Again, thanks for your time and input.
Dear Sir/Madam:
Wish you the very best, study hard, enjoy life, listen to good music, been well rounded–your pts. will love you for this. Read JAMA, NEJS, JBJS both american and british; JFAS, JAOFS, FAS, etc…read as much as you can, and do not be afraid to make lots of mistakes–that is how you learn and become proficient and expert.
Best of luck,.
The equality among the MD and others is full of many different events and decisions over the course of history. You have to understand that the MD is the initial component of the entire health care system from which all else stemmed from, and so because of this, they have no welcomed anyone with open arms into the monopoly they once had.
It did take over a century for DO’s to become incorporated, and amazingly, in the professional world, gain identical status. While the MD community did not like DO’s at first, they did realize that they had interesting concepts that could actually work. While many were opposed, the open minded MD’s knew it was legitimate practice, and that individuals trained in the way of the DO were competent. With that being said, the time lag for acceptance really overlapped with the time it took DO’s to prove they were proficient. The same exact battle happened with the chiropractors, and after nearly a century, like clockwork, they are being incorporated as well. As far as podiatry and dentistry goes, greater technology and research in the sciences supported that idea that these were areas that required special attention. The mouth and the foot are two areas that are vital to the way we as humans work. While MD’s can specialize in different areas, it was seen as beneficial to have experts in these areas that could exchange with the MD/DO. The overall picture is building a more efficient health care ‘family’ where we can efficiently handle every problem that is manifested in the human body. While some may discount these specializations, they really are critical to have because they are areas that require very in depth knowledge and detailed information. You can look at it as almost comparable to the specialties that MD/DO’s go into. While the basic courses in school are the same, they branch at about year 2 to get into the specialty sooner than would an MD/DO. I don’t feel like I need to explain the varying areas of pathologies and significance associated with each because I assume that you are probably on some sort of medical related course, but it finally comes down to creating a proficient and efficient health care system that can deal with all human ailments from an expert level, hence “Dr”.
After reading the 1st 5 comments…
I came to the conclusion that
all you people need a life
..honestly..who the fuck cares…
HAHAHA. Z is right… I think we all take ourselves too seriously… Thanks for pointing it out Z.
MD/DO’s bag the girls…what you gonna get as a feets doctor? lolz go to med school to be cool
Ted,
I really didn’t want to comment but I just have to. You must really be a loser to make such a statement. I mean come on…you need an MD/DO to get girls. SERIOUSLY. WOW. and “go to med school to be cool”…SERIOUSLY. WOW. You should incorporate that into your personal statement…
To the a-hole who said DPM= “did not pass Mcat”—–that is certainly not true……getting into med school is often luck – one can say that DO’s are the same…..I thought this inter degree hate was for the oldsters and not for the younger docs….and Shan above……there are plenty of MD’s and DO’s who refer their foot patients to pods rather then orthopods….get real
To “YouIgnorant Slut”:
I think the “inter degree hate” that you refer to is actually most common among students in these forums… as you can see from these posts, any actual seasoned MD/DO who has commented on here has told people to get over themselves and get over their egos, and to respect doctors in any field… that is refreshing to me… it seems that it is mostly students who are so concerned with this arrogant and demeaning crap… actual doctors who are busy treating patients usually realize the limits of their own knowledge and refer to those who specialize in the field they need, because this is practical… I can see why you would be irritated, but don’t sweat the haters that post nonsense about our field on here.. once they get in the real world and encounter smart and talented podiatrists, their opinions will most likely change, in the meantime they can enjoy their fantasy world where they are better than everyone else… MCAT scores, GPA, school rankings, etc. do not matter to a doctor in the real world as much as CLINICAL SKILL. Any real practicing doctor realizes this.
I have come to the conclusion that these student doctor forums (at least the comments sections) are a complete waste of time and space… My advice to anyone seeking a career in podiatric medicine would be to SHADOW PODIATRISTS IN THE REAL WORLD, DO NOT MAKE YOUR DECISION BASED ON THIS STUDENT DOCTOR SITE!!! do not even let forums like this sway you one way or the other… keep in mind that most people on here have absolutely no idea what they are talking about…
The ultimate summation of the argument goes like this:
“I chose podiatry school, because a podiatry school chose me and a medical school did not.”
LOL at above…you fail at reading comprehension.
sandy,
Are u serious? Wow..are u this judgemental (and wrong by the way) in all areas of your life?.. one of the most frustrating arguements podiatry students encounter is that all of us applied to medical school and didnt get in!! I cant believe that some of you cant fathom that most of us actually chose podiatry school and had NO intention of applying to MD school! I wonder if the dental, optometry, vet, etc students all get this same blanket and inaccurate criticism from arrogant pre-meds (who think being a doctor just means you can do anything you want and be rich and get girls…)
Someone,
I have read most of your posts on this joke of a comment board, and I just wanted to say that I really respect your knowledge and enthusiasm. I think you have done a great job defending our field (especially against those guys earlier like that redneck psycho LeRoy guy LOL!! That guy was nuts, as was that Happy and Very Happy character who probably was the same DO student trying to make rude comments as if it were 2 people, so that it would look like more people were on his side LOL) I wish you the best. Are you currently in the application process??
I think people often associate pod students as med school rejects cause pod students also take the mcat whereas dental & optometry students do not. Vets… that’s a different story, we’re not even talking about humans anymore lol. Also, pod schools used to and 1 or 2 still take dat scores and gre’s. Clearly, students submitting those scores come off like rejects
Also, there are so many pod students claiming to have gotten into med school, but chose pod school instead. I can’t even remember how many times I’ve seen that statement. I can see how some may think it’s B.S. simply because who the hell would take the time to fill out AMCAS/AACOMAS (pain in the ass) fork out hundreds to thousands on primaries and another few hundred or thousand on secondaries, and toss another few hundred or thousand on travel expenses for interviews. I’m only talking about money here. The effort in filling out the secondary and rigor in writing a medical school personal statement, 3-6 essays per secondary, and finding letter of rec writers to write about how well you would do in medical school is NOT something anyone would do for fun or just to see if they’d get in.
Either way, I respect podiatry. There is no one on earth that can match your knowledge of the foot/ankle. I simply think there are things your profession could do away with if it wants to be perceived as its own profession and not a medical school rejection choice. Less talk about taking the USMLE would be a start also. It never made sense to me… Why have pod students say podiatric medical school is the same thing as medical school. we take the same classes blah blah blah and we’re thinking about taking the USMLE. By the way… I got into medical school, but i chose pod school cause it’s a better fit for me. ???!!!??? but you just said it’s the same thing! So you decided to toss your med school acceptances out the window and redo the app cycle, repay all the app fees, rewrite essays, and tell your lor writers you’re going to pod school instead and got new letters (not sure if people actually do this)? All for the “same thing.”
Barney,
you make a lot of sense… pod school and med school are not EXACTLY the same… however, the administrations of the schools over the years have made us have about 90 percent of the curriculum in common, especially at the schools that are affiliated with med schools… therefore one could argue that they are pretty much the same education, but with a twist on the emphasis… i guess the frustrating thing for pod students is when med students (like many on this board earlier) say retarded things like “you pods wouldnt know what to do if a patient passed out, because you only learn the foot!!” i cannot describe to you how foolish such a statement appears to us… it blows my mind that they think we spend 4 years learning only the foot, when really we only take about 2-4 credits each semester of something dealing with specifically the foot/leg… everything else is systemic medicine and pathology… my neurologist the other day actually asked me (and he honestly didnt know) if when we do our physiology, we study the heart and stuff too, or if we just do physiology of the foot and leg!!!! LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS?? as if it has its own separate physiology?!?! so you can see why this would be annoying… its frustrating to spend years learning stuff and then have other students (who dont even know you or your school) telling you that you didnt learn it, or that you are ignorant about topics you also had to master, when really they are the ones demonstrating ignorance about you…
The bottom line is: podiatric medical school is VERY similar to medical school, but with a podiatric EMPHASIS… this should be pretty much common sense but for some reason there seems to be a lot of confusion about it, obviously due to peoples egos… It blows my mind that some of these med students think that since our schools may have a lower MCAT average than theirs, they think we dont have to learn the same stuff as them… as if pathology and pharm were not the same subject at my school as at theirs… you can see how this would get annoying… then they claim that is isnt as hard here, which of course they would have know way of knowing… and why would it not be as hard, esepcially where pod students are integrated with med students, and taking the same courses???? I gaurantee you that our lower anatomy and lower pathology are much more intense than at most med schools, and it makes sense that it would be
yes there are some pod students with inferiority complexes who feel the need to say that we are EXACTLY the same as med students…. which makes no sense to me, because it is our specialization which makes us important/unique/marketable, etc… personally I would rate my knowledge of systemic medicine a FRACTION below an MD student, and my knowlege of lower extremity medicine a FRACTION above them… that is how our schools prepare us… and our first year of residency which is internal med
Barney, I do know people who were accepted to both podiatry and medical schools, but most pod students who applied to multiple programs actually applied to programs like dentistry or optometry, etc. … programs with a shorter duration… and if pod students did apply to med schools as well, they probably only picked a couple, due to the hassles you mentioned above… I would venture a guess that 70 percent of my classmates only applied to podiatry school, because they knew thats what they wanted to go in to…
respectful,
Thanks for the kind words. I also appreciate you coming on this board and dispelling lies/ignorance. I think podiatry as a profession needs more people like you who are not afraid to raise their voices.
Yes, I am in the process of applying for c/o 2014…well I guess I should say I’ve finished the process since I have already finalized my acceptance
Can’t wait to start podiatry school next year!
Barney,
I completely understand where you are coming from. As respectful mentioned, a large chunk of Podiatry applicants do come from other health professions such as optometry, dentistry, and medicine. This is largely because Podiatry is such a hidden field. I don’t know if you read some of the other comments above but as you can see, many do not know what podiatrists do. A lot of applicants only found out about podiatry while looking at another field. If my brother did not work at a hospital with an in house podiatry service (this is still quite rare) I would not have known about podiatry.
Another reason for applicants applying to both podiatry and MD/DO is because these applicants were traditionally pre-med. Like I said above, podiatry is a hidden field. When these applicants started the application process they either thought “I should still apply for MD/DO since I am a pre-med” or “My parents still want me to apply MD/DO…I guess I will”. I know this because I felt the same way BUT despite my parents offering to pay for amcas/aacomas…I did not go through with it and only applied for podiatry.
Another thing to consider is that while amcas and aacomas might be a big hassle with secondaries and huge expenses…podiatry is relatively cheap and easy. I think I paid $400 to apply to all 9 schools and the I only had to write 1 personal statement about “why podiatry”.
Lastly, to address the whole podiatry school = medical school. I think this stems from the identity crisis in podiatry. On one hand pods take many of the same classes as med students. Like mentioned above many are side by side with med students…same class, curve, tests, etc. Pods also do rotations in IM, EM, gen surg, ortho, vasc, etc. Pods do residency where 1st year is much like an intern year and 2-3 is all ortho, pod surg, trauma, etc. It is a surgical residency. Then on the other hand there is a focus on lower extremity from day 1. Pods do not do or there is much less focus on ophthalmology, psych, ob/gyn. Pods do not do rotations in psych, ob/gyn, etc. Then there is the situation outside of academics. Pods have full prescription rights. In most states pods can do their own h&p, have surgical privilages in hospitals, have admitting privilages. Some are even hospitalists.
So as you can see it is hard to pin point exactly where pods stand. On one hand pods are separate from MD/DO since there is a difference in education. On the other hand MD/DO’s eventually specialize and when they do…how important is some of the general medical education? How important is the eye to an orthopedic surgeon? Now since specialization has been brought up…how different is podiatry than any other medical specialty? In some hospitals they are indistinguishable. In practice podiatry is indistinguishable to other medical specialties. The arguments go on and on.
Good grief…careful, your insecurties and immaturity are showing! I would think that people intrested in healthcare would be better able to dialogue than some of the hateful vitriol I have read. It is scary to think some of you will be interacting with patients in pain or colleagues that might get under your skin…take a defensive chill pill and try to speak to eachother as partners in an effort, than ememies with an ax to grind!
“It is scary to think some of you will be interacting with patients in pain”
You could also take a chill pill. This is the internet. No one will actually be talking this way to their patient. OK, maybe one idiot will, but there’s simply no correlation between online Sh*t talking and patient contact. With the amount of crap said on SDN, if there were any correlation, I think 90% of all med students/residents/attendings would be kicked out of the program or have no job.
I can’t wait till everyone is screwed with the Obama plan and ets off their high horses!
But that’s what you get for electing an islamic terrorist as your president! You got what you wanted now enjoy OBAMA bin ladin!!!!
^I hope for the sake of medicine you never become a doctor.
LOL… this has gotten ridiculous… but still entertaining…
Learn to respect your fellow neighbor.
I just want to say Im a D.O. student who has a father as a Podiatrist. My father is a very well respected physician’s physician and performes detailed surgeries as well as pateint care. I respect all DPM’s as physicians, as they share so many roots with Allopathic and osteopathic schools. The gpa average is lower than most other schools, but this means very little in the end (residencies and community respect do). As a future DO, i occationally hear the same garbage that I chose this because i couldnt get into the MD program. Its not fair to assume this (while for some it is true)as i graduated with a 3.85 from a prestigious school and scored well on the MCAT. Some people will bring the stats down for Pod schools, but it is not indicative of the quality of podiatrist that results. That is to be determined for each person.
!!!! Cant wait to practice along side all my pod and md buddies in the near future:)
So, take heart DPMs, your future potential is great and if you play hard you have no reason to feel any less than any other Doctor. PS, some podiatrist make amazing money as well. My father makes over 300k/yr (which is not normal, average is 134,000) and works 50hrs a week. It can be done
Meddek8DO:
Wonderful comment… it was refreshing to read something honest and positive, and based on your own personal experience… thank you
Here are my thoughts………I am a six year veteran of the US Navy with three combat tours (2 in Iraq and 1 in Afghanistan). At the age of 20, while most of the people on this thread were still in junior high and high school, I was treating: GSW’s, Acute Stress Disorder, patients in shock, respiratory arrest, fractures and a whole host of other traumas (physical and mental). I don’t mean I was assisting in the treatments, I was performing emergency life saving procedures, unsupervised without direction from a physician. In addition to all of this I was being attacked by people who were going to kill me when they got the chance. Fast forward a few years: I graduated with high honors from a school with a great reputation (3.8 Science GPA/4.0 Non-science GPA), I scored a 33 on the MCATs (11′s across the board) and have been offered multiple military packages to pay for medical school. I applied to and was accepted to: four M.D. programs, six D.O. programs, three D.P.T. programs and two D.P.M. programs. I recently accepted an offer to matriculate to a D.O. program because it is the best fit for me. For anyone who has taken it upon themselves to believe that they are better than anyone else needs to realize that medical practice is an interdisciplinary art. If you are not intelligent enough to direct a patient to someone who is able to better treat them than yourself, please consider a different career because you are endangering the lives of OUR patients. No one on this post has their OWN patients, they are OUR patients, regardless of your specialty/title/letters behind your name. WE are the future of medical practice and WE owe it to OUR patients (remember them, the whole reason that the profession exists) to see each other for what they are, colleagues. As a D.O. I will be more than happy to consult a M.D., D.P.M. and any other type of medical professional to assist with in better serving the patient. I am a firm believer that those who practice medicine only for financial gain have brought the respectability of the medical arts down and hope that those who are too prideful to let someone else take over a case that you can not figure out have a short career because those of us who are entering medicine for the correct reasons need not to deal with your lack of professional respect. Medicine is a life long learning process and no one will ever know it all.
NavyDoc, I think the last sentence you said was honestly the most intelligent thing said on this entire thread. NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW IT ALL. I hope everyone here bashing other medical disciplines comes to realize this. Do you really think a cardiologist remembers much about the eye? Do you think a FM Dr remembers details about every disease and every part of the body when he is so used to referring his patients to specialists? Can an EM doc do trauma surgery on a patient? No, he refers that patient to a surgeon. I shadowed a neonatologist and he told me that due to malpractice more and more doctors specialize and narrow down what they practice day-by-day. He knew one Dr. who focused solely on the cornea! Not even the entire eye! Does that mean that doctor is an idiot because after years of practicing one little body part he will eventually not remember everything about the stomach? How hard can it be to focus on one part of one organ, right? The ignorance expressed here is disgusting. One other point I must make: elitism is relative. The vast majority of American’s do not hold a doctorate degree. Most don’t even have a Masters. You’re going to tell me that the average American is going to frown upon a Podiatrist, even though he went to four years of college, four years of doctorate school, and 3 years of post-doc? ARE YOU JOKING ME?! And if you want me to speak frankly, for all you DO’s patronizing podiatric medicine, I’m sure there are MD’s who look down upon you. And for all you FM MD’s, I’m sure there are specialists who look down upon YOU for not specializing. And for all you cardiologists and neurologists, I’m sure there are cardio surgeons and neurosurgeons who look down upon YOU for not doing a longer residency! Now of course I do not agree with any of that, but for anyone criticizing another medical field, I’ve got news for you. There’s ALWAYS going to be someone who thinks they’re better than you, so get off your high horse and learn to get along with the others around you.
I just so happen to be a 3rd year podiatry student, sitting in a “watered down” ER rotation as we speak! I hate to say it, but I’m not going to use most of this stuff in my career; it is watered down (and boring!) We aren’t trained to be ER physicians. That’s not our speciality. We aren’t trained to be internal medicine physicians. That’s not our specialty! I’ve spent years working in the medical lab (be nice to your lab Doctors! Remember, tests take TIME!) I’ve seen what internal medicine, urgent care, family practice, and pediatric physicians do on a daily basis! Sorry, but it’s not for me! I only got accepted into one DO program. I only applied to one. My mother (BSN/MSN) BEGGED me to go! But I was realistic. I knew I would end up being in a residency I didn’t want (probably internal medicine) and I wouldn’t be happy! Sure, clipping toenails (“Toenail Tuesday” or “Terrible Tuesday”) isn’t fun, but it’s something that has to be done for your patient. It’s about treating the patient, not about who’s (you know what) is bigger than who’s. Get over yourselves all you Doctors who are playing this game of “I’m better than you. I’m more important than you. I’m trained better than you.” We are all trained differently. We all do different things better. There are plenty of DO/DPM students would do fantastic in MD schools and on their boards (and some that couldn’t do it). You’re not smarter, you’re just trained differently. If you really wanna whip ‘em out and compare sizes…let me know.
Who cares! They all require hardwork and have decent pay. MD=DO=DPM>zombies>nazi zombies
For the future doctors out there reading all of this malicious BS, please don’t feel discouraged or defeated in your pursuits. There are actually a handful of realistic and uplifting posts on here. Thanks for those.
MD, DO, DPM, etc are ONLY professional designations. Once obtained they are placed behind a person’s name to signify WHAT it is you have been trained to do. There are no professional designations for WHY you do it, HOW well you do it. Instead there are only assumptions made according to this imaginary doctor hierarchy followed by judgement being passed down to anybody who, in your mind, is lower on the totem pole. Who do you think you are? If you are mean like this to your COLLEAGUES then I feel bad for the patient who makes the mistake of coming to seek your help. The question of your core competencies as a doctor aside, your character needs its own residency program.
Good luck on match day.
I can’t even believe that people take the time to argue about this (or that I took the time to read it- it was like a train wreck). Who cares what we are all called? DPMs like feet because they are interesting, and doctors like looking at skin problems, xrays, tumors, strange bone formations, and infections. Oh wait a minute DPMs do all that too, just on the feet. I just blew my own mind. And just to be clear, about 1% of the reason I am going into podiatry is so that I don’t have to put up with the enormous annoying egos that a lot of MDs/DOs possess. And another reason is because the only other specialty that seemed interesting was gynocology but I didn’t want to have to look at vaginas all day. Yes, I would prefer feet.
mmm…interesting…
Just found these comments and some of you are both funny and sad. Specifically in regards to the comment “DPM’s cannot do what MD/DO can” I’ll say the following… There is GREAT disparity within the field of podiatry. Some podiatrists cut nails and calluses at nursing homes which is fine and some do surgery. Myself, I trained at a 4 year surgical residency at a well known ivy league university health system. I work in an orthopaedic practice with 6 other orthopds. I was recruited as the foot and ankle surgeon there and I get ALL the F&A cases. I do all fracture care/trauma care, sprains/strains/tendinitis and surgery. I do no diabetic/palliatice care because that’s what I chose. I have earned the respect of my fellow orthopods. I perform F&A surgery as well as any orthopod and can do any procedure they do OF THE F&A including rearfoot/ankle fusions and I also do TAR/total ankle replacements. So I’d be careful of some of your statements as they show both ignorance and malice.
Who cares? Makes lots $$$, retire, and get off the USA work-addict treadmill.
I’m a podiatry resident (senior) at a program in the northeast. I’m done in six months and returning to my home in the southwest. I am fully trained in forefoot, rearfoot, and ankle trauma and reconstructive surgery. I’ll be working with a group that takes ER trauma call at two different hospitals and will have full admitting privileges at all hospitals where I will be a member of medical staff. While interviewing at another hospital back west, I was surprised to find that a podiatrist was actually chief of surgery. As someone else already stated, their is a huge desparity in podiatric medical training. Things have greatly changed in the last 15 years in the profession.
I do not understand where all of these arguments come from and why some people feel the need to draw a distinct line between MD/DO/DPM etc etc. Clearly these people go through different educations and specialize in different areas otherwise the degrees would be the same. But I think this actually upsets a lot of people, including myself, because in the end we are all healthcare professionals and healthcare is becoming more and more interprofessional so we all have to work together. In fact, I do not think that it is common for the MD students to constantly make themselves feel higher up than the DPMs or DOs, or for the DOs to make themselves feel higher up than the DPMs. I have met students in all different kinds of programs and they have always acted professional when referring to their medical colleagues. The MD students who constantly feel the need to differentiate themselves from everybody else just seemed to have bitter and unpleasant personalities in general. It is not a question of dictionary definitions. As someone who has been accepted to an MD as well as a DPM program, and been rejected from MD and DPM programs, I can say that there is more than just “smartness” behind getting accepted into certain healthcare schools. Clearly, I was “smart” enough to get into medical school, but not “smart” enough to get into podiatry school. But podiatry school is so much easier to get into than medical school right? Clearly, these schools are looking for other things than just GPA and MCAT scores. I mean obviously if you’ve failed your classes you probably won’t stand a chance but schools are really looking at the type of person you are. So in conclusion, the MD/DPM debate MUST end. Have respect for your fellow healthcare colleagues. No matter what road we choose, nothing comes easy in healthcare. You have to find your niche. We are all professionals, and by definition professionals act professionaly and do not succumb to the petty issue of ripping apart the definition of “physician” and leaving out certain groups of people simply because they do not feel that they are good enough.
By the way, BOB’s post on September 15: very well stated sir. I could not agree with you more.
Let’s all just get along folks. We are all going to be working together eventually someday.
Like I have said before, typically students are the main ones hung up in these ego battles (probably because many are yet to mature and get over themselves)… it is very dumb and rather annoying… Boiler Runner and others make very good points… People shouldn’t forget to be well-rounded… I think a lot of people who get so caught up in making themselves look superior to everyone else based on their degree, many times lack fullfillment in other areas of their lives… its like they depend on that for their self esteem… I’m by no means perfect, but in addition to trying to master my specialty, I try to go to the gym daily, play basketball 2x a week, spend a lot of time with my girl, get in occasional video games and TV, and have some semblance of a social life, … That balance is all that keeps me sane… I think you have to be able to relate to your patients as a well-rounded person… not just tell them that you are superior to all of your colleagues who don’t hold your same degree in medicine
podiatrists…hahahahahaahahahahahaha
breathe
hahahahahaha
Wow… I have gained a lot of respect for podiatrists after reading many of these comments… it is interesting to see that it is typically prejudiced or egotistical people that seem to put you guys down. Some people should just get a life and quit being rude! (I.E. the moron that posted before me) I can’t believe that some people actually take the time to write some of the negative things on here! It just ends up demonstrating their own inferiority complex.
I am an optometry student and I was wondering if there is a DO in here who would mind taking a shiz on me?? I have been educated by this forum as to my nothingness and feel that the fair thing to do would be to have a DO student shiz on my face preferably?!?! My mouth is open, and ready to accept all the shiz it can!! This will be great shiz!!
People just need to be secure in their own decisions, move on, and be happy with their own life.
I think many of the OD, DPM, PharmD, DMDs chose it because of the lifestyle. There is nothing wrong with that! Some people just want an interesting job that pays well with enough time in their life for other pursuits.
Quote:
AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION HOUSE OF DELEGATES
Resolution: 303 (A-08)
Introduced by: Illinois Delegation
Subject: Protection of the Titles “Doctor,” “Resident” and “Residency”
Referred to: Reference Committee C (David M. Lichtman, MD, Chair)
Whereas, Certain specialty societies recognize that many allied health care professions have improved their educational standards and incorporated doctorate designations in their training programs; and
Whereas, Many nursing schools have re-titled their training program as a Residency and their students as Residents, despite the traditional attribution of these titles to medical doctors and their training programs; and
Whereas, The growing trend of this title encroachment is of concern because patients will be confused when the titles of Doctor, Resident and Residency are applied to non-physicians who hold non-medical doctorates or to non-physicians in training; therefore be it
RESOLVED, That our American Medical Association adopt that the title “Doctor,” in a medical setting, apply only to physicians licensed to practice medicine in all its branches, dentists and podiatrists (New HOD Policy); and be it further
RESOLVED, That our AMA adopt policy that the title “Resident” apply only to individuals enrolled in physician, dentist or podiatrist training programs (New HOD Policy); and be it further
RESOLVED, That our AMA adopt policy that the title “Residency” apply only to physician, dentist or podiatrist training programs (New HOD Policy); and be it further
RESOLVED, That our AMA serve to protect, through legislation, the titles “Doctor,” “Resident” and “Residency.” (Directive to Take Action)
Fiscal Note: Staff cost estimated at less than $500 to implement.
I think a lot of the really stupid posts are from pre-meds and maybe a few immature 1st year med students. It’s pretty obvious that this is the case because anybody who’s actually worked in medicine would know that MDs and DOs make plenty of referrals to podiatrists-where else would you send your patients with plain old foot problems?! An orthopod who’s specialized in the ankle/foot doesn’t want to do half the stuff that you’d refer to a podiatrist for anyway. And it’s not like foot/ankle orthopods grow on trees or something.
That said, I think the original article makes a few arguments for podiatry that are kinda questionable. It’s *never* a good idea to choose your field based on the people you happened to shadow with, or rotated with. Seriously, because you’ll meet total d-bag surgeons that make the stereotype, but there’s also tons of super-sweet surgeons who love to teach people, and enjoy spending time talking with their patients-makes no sense to decide to become a surgeon just because you happened to shadow the really nice one. That’s the advice they always tell you in medical school when you do your rotations-don’t pick the field based on the personalities of the people you happened to do the rotation with-although honestly it’s a hard trap not to fall into since it’s pretty hard to enjoy a field when the attendings you rotate with aren’t interested in teaching.
All I can say is that if you want to go to podiatry school you should really, really, really, really make sure that you want to do it-and don’t just base it on what some patient said (because patients say nice things about doctors in all kinds of fields) or how the person you shadowed behaved. Base it on the specialty itself or you might end up finding yourself wishing you were something else.
I have to say that I’ve changed my mind about specialties countless times and found out that I utterly hated a lot of the specialties I thought I would love, and that I at least liked some of the specialties I thought I would totally hate. And this doesn’t happen to everyone, but the great thing about regular old medical school and it’s rotations is that maybe, just maybe, you’ll find that field where suddenly you realize that this is what you wanted to do for the rest of your life, bar none, and you wouldn’t trade the world for it. Or not-not everyone really falls madly in love with any particular field.
i can’t believe that i read all that crap! I’m a 2nd year DO student at westernU (thanks for all the DO bashing guys). whoever said that the podiatry students here are together with the DO students for the whole 4 years doesn’t know what he/she is talking about. they are together for the basic sciences during the first year for sure. then when they get into the systems based courses i was under the impression that they completely separate from there but to be fair i’m not sure on that (i guess i could ask around). i know that they have separate courses for each system but they may have the hystology and physiology together. not sure (the DPM program is in it’s first year so they are not in any of my classes).
for the first 2 years they work together in groups which also include dentists and optometrists on cases to foster mutual respect and promote the health care family that was mentioned multiple times. they are also designed to help each other understand the roles that the other professions play in management of many diseases and when and why you would refer. not to mention that they will all have a better understanding of the disease process thanks to the differing knowledge bases and approaches.
as for them taking the USMLE i don’t think you know what you are talking about there either. i’m almost positive they will take the regular podiatry boards with the rest of the podiatry world. if you want to take the USMLE then you are stupid and really are doing this for your own ego. take the podiatry boards and be happy that you don’t have to take the monster that is the USMLE or the COMLEX. if you are well trained in your rotations/residency then you will have what you need to be a good Dr. based on other posts it seems that even those that are disgruntled felt that they recieved adequate training to succeed in their field and help their patients.
i think you as podiatrists have your place in the medical family and should celebrate your autonomy from the AMA/AOA instead of trying to become assimilated. if you think your boards should be harder then lobby your representatives to the profession to make them harder.
i also think that people get caught up in trying to figure out who is better and blah blah blah. it is all different and different people like different things and have different needs out of a prefession. it’s those that settle for a similar field bc they couldn’t get into what they wanted that cause all the strife (and even then only those that won’t fully accept it bc of pride). Podiatry would not have been “below” me, neither would have optometry or dentistry (i actually worked for an optomotrist for 3 years fully expecting to go into optometry). DO was just the better fit. i didn’t want to be a dentist, DPM, RN, MD or DPT bc DO fit my personality even tho i felt that i could have gotten into whatever i wanted.
i think that all these people that are trying to prove their intillectual superiority should wake up and realize that many people could do just fine in medical school and make good doctors. it’s more about effort than anything and most people don’t believe it is worth the effort or i believe they would be able to do just fine. i have met plenty of dumb MD/DOs and they have/will passed/pass the USMLE and/or COMLEX and it has everything to do with their hard work.
sorry this is long and rambling but what do you expect from someone that just read all your postings (even the ridiculous ones).
Wow, I stumbled upon this article and was totally surprised at the comments. I think we should spend less time bashing other people, and spend more time studying medicine.
I checked the 2009-2010 catalogs for both DPM and DO for Westernu and all 4 years are identical except for Osteopathic principles and practice were replaced with Podiatric principles and practice. All the same required rotations except replaced OMM with pod surg. Electives in other medical specialties were replaced with Pod clerkships.
The goal of the dean from the beginning has been to prepare the DPM’s at Westernu to take the USMLE hence why the DPMs take all the same classes at the DOs. I don’t think anyone ever said they “wanted” to take the USMLE…people were just pointing out what they heard the Dean say.
Please get your facts straight before you say things like “whoever said that the podiatry students here are together with the DO students for the whole 4 years doesn’t know what he/she is talking about” and “as for them taking the USMLE i don’t think you know what you are talking about there either”. If you are “almost positive” then don’t state things as if they are facts.
Other than that, I thought your post was very good. Like you were eluding to, respect is earned. It does not matter what initials you have, all that matters is if you are hard working and content.
In response to “someone.”
Western U., lol, great school to compare with. Western is in such a hurry to grab as much money as possible, they’ll throw whatever trash applies through the 500 different “health” programs they have there. DO, optometry, Pods, dentistry, pharm,etc. I heard that Western has over accepted so much that all the students cant fit into the lecture hall. Overflow has to watch lectures from a different room with the information streamed, real classy.
I’ve met some of you DO western students at Queens and ICC, both hospitals are a joke. What kind of program sends students to such trashy facilities?
DPM is an asset to a physician, just as an audiologist is to an ent, or an optometrist to an opthamologist.
To all the MDs & DOs with God-complexes:
GET OVER YOURSELF! If you don’t understand that then maybe you should consider:
(1.) Regaining your humanity
(2.) Having a real relationship with someone that isn’t based on some letters after your name and instead about the quality of your character
(3.)Realizing that as physician that you are to do what is best for the patient and a sometimes this means referring out to someone without an MD or DO
I too used to be a fan of SDN and was convinced in the hierarchy of credentials… but now as practicing physician I realize what a farce this is. The only people who discuss and believe this bullshit are the people who are:
(a.) Naive as they haven’t treated a patient
(b.) Future old bitter doctors that complain that they work so hard and yet no one respects them and they got paid enough – yet fail to realize the reason they suck as doctors is because they put their own interests in front of their patients
When you have a distressed patient the only thing that matters is what you can do for them and at what cost. Sometimes MDs/DOs are better equipped, other times they are not. Everyone must realize that they are members of the healthcare team – not then end all and be all.
Thank god there are dentists and podiatrists and audiologists, otherwise my own personal health care would suffer dramatically.
The real world will judge you on two criteria:
(a.) What difference you have made in someone else’s life
(b.) How much money you have
Which criteria you value is up to you. But I know for a fact that MDs and DOs with God complexes will fail both criteria.
Alright… I’m done with my rant. And if there are some spelling or grammar mistakes then suck it… as I have a real life and have real patients to treat instead of trying to inflate my ego on SDN.
What schools teach students how to be Doctors? what subjects do you have to study? Because I am wanting to be a Doctors and have always wanted to be a Doctor every sence I was little. I am in 8th grade. I would love to become a Doctor.
in response to lawl
your post is not entirely accurate.
AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION HOUSE OF DELEGATES Resolution: 303 (A-08)
Introduced by: Illinois Delegation
Subject: Protection of the Titles “Doctor,” “Resident” and “Residency”
Referred to: Reference Committee C (David M. Lichtman, MD, Chair)
Whereas, Certain specialty societies recognize that many allied health care professions have improved their educational standards and incorporated doctorate designations in their training programs; and
Whereas, Many nursing schools have re-titled their training program as a Residency and their students as Residents, despite the traditional attribution of these titles to medical doctors and their training programs; and
Whereas, The growing trend of this title encroachment is of concern because patients will be confused when the titles of Doctor, Resident and Residency are applied to non-physicians who hold non-medical doctorates or to non-physicians in training; therefore be it
RESOLVED, That our American Medical Association adopt that the title “Doctor,” in a medical setting, apply only to physicians licensed to practice medicine in all its branches, dentists and podiatrists (New HOD Policy); and be it further
RESOLVED, That our AMA adopt policy that the title “Resident” apply only to individuals enrolled in physician, dentist or podiatrist training programs (New HOD Policy); and be it further
RESOLVED, That our AMA adopt policy that the title “Residency” apply only to physician, dentist or podiatrist training programs (New HOD Policy); and be it further
RESOLVED, That our AMA serve to protect, through legislation, the titles “Doctor,” “Resident” and “Residency.” (Directive to Take Action)
Fiscal Note: Staff cost estimated at less than $500 to implement.
—>Podiatrists are Doctors. The other occupations you mentioned are not. Audiologists and optometrists are assets, but neither can operate surgeries on the same scale as a podiatrist.
i lol’d @ brittany’s post
thanks @ someone with a life!
As an intern Podiatrist I managed everything from general ER patients to surgical emergencies on general surgery. I was always reliable, and worked hard and filled a real need for a physician.
I could care less what anyone else thinks.
The physicians who know me respect me. I am a Podiatrist and have no excuses for it. I love what I do.
Podatrists are midlevels with training in feet, not medicine. It’s pretty clear, and anyone who has worked with them in their “residencies” realize this.
I had a pod resident rounding with us when I was an intern , along with the med students. We took a look at an EKG, and they didn’t know what P waves were.
LOL, ’nuff said.
Why must you label residencies with quotations? Podiatrist go through very comprehensive training and work very hard on a day-to-day basis. I agree with you that podiatrists are not as competent in some aspects of medicine as medical doctors or osteopathic doctors. But to degrade the profession is wrong and unprofessional because it most certainly has its niche in the medical community.
Boy, there are a lot of idiots in this world.
Podiatrists are specialists. They start specializing quite early (in Podiatry School) and pretty much know what is relevant and what is not relevant to their field. While general medicine is good to know, once you specialize…it is human nature to put less focus on topics that are “out of scope”. I think its safe to say that reading an EKG will be in the not important pile for most Podiatrists.
Pretty logical, right? It really isn’t that difficult to connect the dots and avoid ignorant comments.
Hi everyone;
I think that unfortunately, many people are not cut out to work in the medical field. They are only in for the money. Looking down on other specialties = ignorance.
I myself have a PhD from a very respected school in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. I am applying to Podiatry school after becoming involved in a research project that dealt with genetic foot deformities. Don’t judge other people, intelligence and competence is not in the field of specialty, but in the individual him/herself. Good luck to all MD, DO, DPM, DDS, DMD, RN, OD, (…etc) students. We are all together in this.
Hello everyone, I am a undergraduate at a top ranked university in the science, and although most of the previous posts have been about respect and prestige among various medical profession vs. podiatry (ignorance?) I have REAL issues I would like to address. I was recently exposed to podiatry, I have always wanted to be a doctor but I am very interested in podiatry and what it has to offer as well as a more flexible lifestyle when compared to other fields of medicine that still practice surgery. I have read many threads on Podiatry but there is one myth if you will that I cannot find an answer to. Many have said that podiatry is a dieing field because a combination of other doctor could do what podiatrists do, this is why there are so few schools and also why it is easier to get in then MD or DO schools, I have also read that it is very difficult to make a good living as a podiatrist coming out of residency and that the podiatrists makeing over 200K have been in practice for decades. Is podiatry really that difficult to make lucrative, not to sound like I am only in it for the money because I genuinely do care about improving my patients lives but with all the debt a medical professional takes on money is a factor, as well as the fact that any doctor would like all his or her hard work to pay off and have a nice home and send their kids to school. Can anyone out there enlighten me on the current situation of podiatry in regards to job security/ease of finding a job/ typical income/earning potential? Thanks.
it can be quite difficult to make 200K post-tax yearly in podiatry. was the person you were shadowin a foot and ankle surgeon or a general podiatrist? similar to dentist and an OMFS? in this economy, medicine can afford a middle class lifestyle, however, student loan debt can be suffocating, and the hours working can be long. research your decision quite robustly b/c of the vast litigation industry in the USA, lawyers can sue you left/right/centre.
and yes, many residencies in podiatry and podiatric surgery can be watered down and weak as many MD programs do not know about podiatrics or what the students go through. they hear pejorative comments, and belittling comments and joe public has no clue what DPM means/is. many MDs/DOs cannot believe that they get a DEA licensure. they are flabbergasted, the APA has failed to properly educate the USA about pods.
for the record, i completed a 3-year surgical residency at a medical school program followed by a 4 year fellowship all with allopaths.
do your homework regarding podiatric medicine, podiatric surgery, the training is vastly inconsistent and all the APMA rah, rah talk has been going on for years with no real changes. that is why podiatry is not for everyone, the happier ones we have met are no longer in active practice and are either doing consulting, research, pharma, etc…more normal hours, 200-400K yearly and able to retire @50 yr unlike the typical work addict doc. with the greedy american lifestyle.
Russ, your statements are for the most part, pessimistic and annoying…. . you act like the only way to make money in podiatry is to do lots of surgery, when most people in the field realize that simple podiatric medicine is quick and easy and pays as well as doing longer surgeries where you then cant bill the patient for a certain time after. im yet to meet a podiatrist who makes under 200k a year, you can make as little or as much as you want in this field… your blanket statement about how “the happier ones we met are no longer in active practice blah blah blah” is ridiculous. if anything, the podiatrists i have met are much happier than the internists and others ive encountered who are married to their jobs and worked to death and on call all the freakin time…. and by the way, the training in podiatry is no longer “vastly inconsistent”. everybody does 3 year residencies now for the most part. its not 1990 anymore… who gives a shiz if some md’s or do’s dont like that pods have a dea license (which by the way very few care in the real world, except a few who are pricks and nobody likes anyway)… they most likely feel the same way about dentists, and i dont see dentists whining about it… bottom line is that podiatry is no different from neurology or cardio or anything else. you see patients that have problems that youre training can benefit. everyone practices within a scope these days. and yes, student loan debt is a lot… did you know that for dental students many are paying 300-500k a year? and yet they make very similar to us, and less money in many cases?? MD programs arent cheap either… and your comment about “joe public doesnt know what DPM is”…. most likely Joe Public doesnt care or even notice, and if you tell him, hes not going to question you, hes just gonna want you to fix his dam foot… Joe Public doesnt know what DO is either, nor does he care… because Joe Public doesnt know shiz about medicine anyway!!and finally, your comment “medicine can afford a middle class lifestyle”, what did you grow up a millionare or soemthing? i think a 6 figures is above middle class for most of us. at cleveland clinic, pods are a tier above internists and rheumatologists on the pay scale. if you are a bright person, and cool to be around, any physician you associate closely with will see your qualities and respect you just as much for it… and most importantly, so will your patients!
Actually “Joe Public” knows what a Podiatrist is.
I am in a job where I meet a lot of different people and whenever the subject goes to what my plans are…I am never shy to say I will be going into Podiatry School. And I have yet to meet anyone who did not know that Podiatrists are the foot doctors. Maybe they do not know the full extent of our training and scope of practice but everyone knows you go to a Podiatrist if you have a problem with your feet.
In response to “Podiatry=mid level not physician” or whatever your stupid name was….
After reading your post… i came to 2 conclusions:
A – you are a liar
B – the resident you rotated with was retarded and somehow slipped through the cracks
We learn emergency medicine in our 2nd year… that includes extensive training in ekg interpretation, as that is BASIC and ESSENTIAL…. and since we take physio right off the bat when we start school, ekg is also covered first semester… also on our boards… also for the MCAT when we had to even apply to school…. im wasting my time even responding to you, i can already tell that you seem like the type who judges a whole profession on one idiot you encountered… by the way, our prestigious MD pathology teacher told us that blood is blue in the veins… and that the normal heart has 2 tricuspid valves… “LOL nuff said” back at you, see how easy it is to be an judgemental ass??
Personally, I don’t really care whether a podiatrist can read an EKG – they don’t need to. When I was a resident at a “prestigious” midwestern university, I took ACLS with radiology residents who didn’t know whether you needed to charge the paddles every time you shock someone – it didn’t make them bad radiologists. It only makes sense that a smart person who focuses 4 years of school on the foot and ankle, then three years of residency in the same, will get good at it. No, I don’t think they can do bypass surgery as well as I can – but I can’t do a very good bunion operation.
And I must say – at the place I did residency, the orthopedic residents spent very little time with foot and ankle issues – so why does their having the title MD make them superior foot and ankle specialists?
Thank you! That comment makes more sense than almost anything said on this forum! Students get so caught up in these ego battles… first year med students ragging DPM’s because they “cant treat the whole body” blah blah blah… bottom line is that everybody does what they are trained to do, and in todays sue-happy society, if you find yourself “treating the whole body”, youre gonna make a mistake and get sued, no matter what letters are behind your name… (of course, the next counter-arguement is “at least we as D.O.’s CAN treat the whole body”…. and what good is this if you arent going to??) An orthopod I know said it best… “you pick what you want to do when you start, and then it just narrows from there…”
I agree, no need for quite such pessimism. But great nevertheless
Your choice of podiatry has not been researched. There comes in time in most people’s lives when they look back at the choices they’ve made. Many choices were based on information provided by so-called reliable sources.
Check your sources and check their agendas. Once you take away the phony tinsel and glitter you might uncover the real tinsel and glitter.
Reliable sources? They are reliable because you believe the front and flash – in essence it is a misdirect. You are not listening to the majority of podiatrists who have not reaped the rewards and there alre plenty. Why do you hear so many podiatrists urge prospective students to avoid the so-called negativity sites and the naysayers? They – the rah rah rah- podiatrists do not want you to know just what you are getting in to.
Podiatry is not what you think it is – no matter what you think – it is. There have been several articles about podiatry and criminal podiatrists (google it). You will at some point realize that lateral career moves are not an option with a DPM degree.
The DPM degree is was and most likely will never be an internationally recognizable designation nor a household term. You have a choice now to continue your education and ad a DO MD NP RN or physician assistant to augment your training –
How many positions are there for DPM’s? See if I’m wrong, after you do some research.
I have this theory… that the same old bashers get on here under different names and post the same demeaning stuff over and over… people like caddypod… most likely trying to control the market
Basher?
I prefer observer but you can call me whatever you’d like. Just don’t make a habit of it.
As it is was and likely will be:
Ahh…Control the market. Great!
I’ll take the heat. I’ve been emphasizing change for quite a spell, haven’t I?
Maybe I’ll get some traction toward meaningful change in the education and training of future podiatrists. The so-called legit boards won’t hear of my suggestions.
Maybe the pod schools will have the post 2nd year students take the USMLE part I – gotta start someplace. This was not my suggestion – nonetheless it’s a darn good one.
Then again that might put the NBPME in a less than fluid position at the cost of jobs. That’s a very real issue and a remedy might be to have that subset re-inserted into another strictyly podiatric regime.
I remain anonymous because those of you who have experience in podiatry know just how vindictive and undermining fellow DPMs can be.
I agree with the post by the fellow suggesting that podiatry could implement a USMLE protocol. This would certainly silence the people who do not believe that the first two years of DPM school are less than that of DDS MD DO school. It seems to be a very simple and demonstrative pathway toward academic parity.
My guess is that the Board of Podiatry examiners fear this for several reasons and your guess is one to write about. Looking forward to your input.
Exactly, require the USMLE step 1 for all podiatric medical schools. The rhetoric has gone on too long. If the podiatric societies truly think equity in training/education for first two years, then demonstrate it by simply taking this exam, followed by another brutally difficult exam called step 2 and then step 3–using the NBPME b/c of the LE focus. or will the NBPME be out of business, then so be it. Podiatric medicine and surgery is moving forward, if the APMA and NBPME enjoy status quo and in-fighting then they are impeding progress.
Great idea… we already use the USMLE book to prepare for boards, and most students complain that our own boards are mostly testing basic science trivia and not important clinical knowledge which we have worked so hard to obtain… i believe most of us feel that the USMLE test would be more representative of what we learned, and would be fair
Tom and Love Podiatry – glad to see some agreement on this. Question is how to accompish this. It will cause some layoffs at the NBPME something the APMA – from what I have come to believe – supoorts. But it – USMLE – would put an END to any questions for once and for all. THAT is what WE need!
Now that we have identified a problem how do we get it done?
Oh it has to go to committte and the house of delegates and PPAC and on and on and on…Come on there has to be someone not on some revenue source courageous enough to stand up and say enough is enough!
I have been called a naysayer negativist for years but all I want is to IMPROVE upon what we have for future colleagues.
agreed, any action would need to go through bureaucracy and panels and delegates, ppacs and much nonsense. all because many have their hands in the podiatry cookie jar…. follow the money. usmle step 1 let’s do it and get rid of the podiatry boards for s
step 1 and implement usmles and show objective parity and knowledge base.
I follow the posts of podiatrists and podiatry students because they are entertaining and at times viciously so. I graduated podiatry school several years ago and knew that I would never be satisfied with the limitations of being a podiatrist. The first two years were a ridiculously watered down version of the medical school courses. The Podiatry Boards part I may have been difficult but nowhere nearly as those after the first two years of medical scool in the US. There is a difference and failing to acknowledge that difference is done so at the cost of furthering the breadth and depth of future learning. I am not `better’ or `negative’ about podiatry, it was just a shoe that did not fit. I did not use the DPM degree in my future. I dropped it from my resume as it would have been to my detrement. Truly not a degree to garner favor with your chief resident. My children never brought up podiatry (thank goodness) and went on to careers in law and academia. Now that I am retired reading these posts have shown that very little has changed because the same level of intellect and greed governs the inbred community of podiatry and podiatrists. I must agree that taking the same boards would be a true gesture toward advancing a stagnant field. You will not hear from me again.
Isn’t there an offshore MD school/tax haven where the dean is a US practicing DPM with an offshore MD degree? This licensed DPM and and offshere MD degree could help DPM students by offering blanket admission to the MD program to allow them to take the usmle test. As it is DPM students can not take this test through traditional avenues.
I saw the advertisement on the day to day newsletter about a female DPM who is now a pediatric resident who went to MD school and looked it and there was a podiatrist dean who is licnesed in podiatry but went to island school. He could really help his fellow podiatryists.
Western University is planning on taking the USMLE along with the Podiatry Boards. Their first class will be doing so in 2011.
DPM to MD….
The one good thing that you had to say was – “you will not hear from me again”….
im so sick of stupid old school podiatrists who never wanted to get in it in the first place who had to go get an MD afterwards which is total overkill and blah blah blah and thank goodness your children are so great and never menntioned podiatry and blah blah blah… do you not realize that (wait of course you dont) that podiatry has finally found its niche in medicine, and we are closer now to parity than ever before?? Do you also not realize that you are basing your opinion of what podiatrists think about podiatry, on posts made by a great deal of “disgruntled podiatrists”??? And that student doctor is a magnet for naysayers and unhappy people to get on here and bitch about stuff anonymously, and half the time they arent even who they say they are?
Podiatry is for people like me, who chose it because of lifestyle, money, length of time in school, and not dealing with death as much as other docs… you only make yourself look bad by revealing that you paid a fortune and wasted years to get a podiatry degree when it wasnt even what you wanted to do… i am glad you are happy with what you chose in the end, now keep your negativity to yourself
Love podiatry, regarding stupid old podiatrists, they are a dying breed. But there seem to be a lot of disgruntled podiatrists naysayers and unhappy people who take the time to point things out that people like me, students would not read anywhere else. It sounds reasonable to take the same test that other health professionas take after year two. I did look into one of the island schools and the possibility of enrolling in two schools at once is appealing. Since I am going into debt it might as well be big. Also lovepod, why do you insist that DPm to MD is negative? He or she is only speaking from their own point of view and we can always learn something from an individual moved to the point of sharing a life experience.
When I got out of reform school I took the pre-requisites- I had to fool around with the admissions officer. But I am glad I did because now that I am a full fledged podiatrist I can call myself doctor and bill anything I want for shoe inserts. If doctor Scholls can treat back pain so can I! I just put a pillow with rox in it on my chair and they say they have back pain. Oh yeah.
My uncle Leo was a cross dressing veterinarian whose penchant for Kennedy era pill box hats and silk dresses were his downfal. His veterinary skills precluded his animal scent from entering the cage’s of some mammals at the zoo at which he worked but after a rather hideous rendezvous with an ailing gorilla and a series of bizarre rumours spread amongst the community. Unlce Leo, father of three and devout Catholic found that his Veterinary career had come to an abrupt pause. He consequentially enrolled in Podiatry school where he thrived and became Miss Podiatry of that year. He/She practiced for twelve years building a succesful practice and doing quite well adding to his/her list of acccomplishments a residency program and a high-heel walking course for the the uniiniated transevestiture of Owens Mills Kentucky. When his penile appendage was discovered by accident at a Kentucky Derby mint Julip pissing contest he was renounced and sent to a podiatric oblivion where he could only stare at those feet he wished to treat. After an extended and prolonged absence from veterinary medicine Uncle Leo entered a barnyard and proceeded to utter those infamous words which would define his life” “To thine own self be shoe!”
He was trampled by a herd of stray Bull Mastiff’s and his pill box hat remains on my shelf as a reminder to me and anyone else that the foot is a harsh mistress. If you mess with animals you will get trampled.
Gotta love it when you see these pods claiming that they “chose” podiatry (yes there are the minority who actually do). 200 bucks say his GPA was under 3.5 and “his decision” to pursue podiatry was not really his…
Why I chose podiatry? What a loaded question. I have read the responses and must confess none of them seem to hold much in terms of honesty. I had low MCAT scores and a moderate GPA and no US med school would have me. I did get accepted offshore but I was married at the time and she didn’t want to leave her family. So, having no knowledge whatsoever of what podiatry was accept the fact that my wife at the time had a relative who was a podiatrist and seemed to like it I said OK. Let me tell you this: It does not take much to get into DPM school. Then now and probably in the future. I went I trained and made a few bucks. Podiatry school for the most part is a shortcut to your dreams like taking a sleeping pill to fall asleep or doing shooters of 151 rum instead of sipping the wine.
Some defenders of the Holy Foot always post on here or elswhere saying how much things have changed and how smart pod students are and all the naysayers and the old timers and this and that but really folks it’s been over a decade of these same posts and the same people seem to have the same points of view. I follow the threads on the uncensored or almost uncensored sites and there is a lot of truth in humor and its funny that these guys always show up and use phrases like: Looser failure naysayer negativistic and this one – I THINK NOT or I AM APALLED or cast off hacks like moi as frustrated fools – well guess what life ain’t fair and if you try to paint a rosy picture of a pig don’t use smelly crayons. I am sick of hearing about how this or that MD DO resident approves of you or what this or that does this or that for you and that you are accepted. You sound like politicians who just want to get elected to a place in your own minds. The smartest things I heard from podiatrists were those that had little or no knowledge of this claptrap yodelling about the ups and downs of podiatry – One black chick who’s father was an anesthesiologist said: “You white guys don’t what its like to be called a n$#@@r until they call you podiatrist.”
That was last week.
So as Joseph Heller, author of Catch 22 once said re: Jews and I take it most DPMs are of the Mosaic pursuasion:
“If you ever forget your a Jew someone will be there to remind you.”
Pods. I am here to remind you that you are not a unique medical specialty and either change or get used to it. The it is the fact that you are 2nd tier providers and whatever you do will have another DPM extolling his virtues and saving limbs while propelling podiatry another inch toward its own demise.
So take the lousy test after year 2 of DPM school and move on.
Hah…2nd tier providers, no respect, blah blah blah.
What do they say about ER docs…triage nurses…
What about anesthesia…how much respect do they get…no patient ever requests for an anesthesiologist by name, they are all interchangeable, and nurses are already doing taking their jobs.
What about Pathologists…how’s the job market? Semi-MD right? Non clinicians who know nothing about treating patients…isnt this what other specialties think of them?
What about Family Practice…the bottom of the bottom, right?
What about URM? Does their low entrance numbers pre-dispose them to failure?
These past few posts are a joke. Get off your a$$ and start working hard. Stop blaming others for your failures. It’s always someone elses fault, right? It’s a doomed profession, blah blah blah.
Podiatry is evidenced based. You do the same procedures as other specialties like Ortho, Plastics, Derm. Just because the initials after your name is DPM instead of MD…then your destined to fail? Where’s the logic?? You make your own successes and failures. Stop blaming the initials and the profession.
my previous post was in no way meant to disrespect ER docs, anesthesiologists, pathologists, FPs, and URMs. It was to show that “negatives” exist in every profession. It does not make the profession bad. You can’t measure your self worth on somebody else’s “yard stick”.
Yep it’s always someone elses fault all `bout the initials – yep.
Did you ever try putting them on cuff-links? Whoa…what a mess. You ruin shirts.
Without negatives there can be no positives. No heaven no hell. Self-worth…hmm now exploration of cavernous synchratic quandapliputums. No perhpas that does not make sense.
Someone elses yardstick? Wow I have a yardstic of my own and if I need a stand -in I’d rather stay home. Using someone’s yardstick is usually a sure fire way to get yourself cattywomped and then you – if you’re a fella -that’s akin to shooting pool with a strand of rope. At 87 yrs. old …. so what. I am determined to make whatever we do to have some meaning.
“someone” is right, and has been right on target with his/her posts throughout this entire forum… anon… you make very very little sense… if you truly are a podiatrist then i really am sad for you… you only make yourself look bad for joining a profession which you supposedly hate… i dont understand what all the negativity is from some of these people… podiatrists do what they are trained to do… they are the best at it… yes perhaps other kinds of doctors can do the same procedures, but there is no doctor that can do all of what podiatrists do as well as they can… this is a simple fact. i just think that most of you on here need to get a life. stop with all the disrespect. the stupid thing about student doctor is that anybody can get on here and say whatever they want and pretend to be whoever they want to be, without any responsibility… thats why none of this holds any credibility. As Ive said before, it was MD’s who told me about how cool podiatry was, how its a hot field right now especially… might i point out that these MDs are humble, nice guys, not stuck up pricks who look down on all others. there seems to be a lot of the latter on this forum
Hahaha now that i read his posts again… anon is clearly drunk
Hey MDman, you sound like an arrogant bastard… why anyone chooses any field is none of your damn business… hell the reason i chose DVM was because i didnt want to do all the MD crap… is that a crime? MD PROGRAMS ARE TOO DAMN LONG, TOO MUCH WORK, AND YOU HAVE TO LEARN TOO MUCH USELESS EXTRA CRAP, TO END UP DOING THE SAME DAMN THING EVERY DAY IN YOUR SPECIALTY, JUST LIKE A VET, A PODIATRIST, A DENTIST, OR A DAMN CHIROPRACTOR DOES… people like MDman have one thing in their life to hold on to for their self esteem… the MD… well good for you I guess
I think that some of these MD’s are just jealous that other types of doctors can make just as much money as them without having to do so much bull crap and while having a much better lifestyle. I wonder if D.O.’s get this kind of persecution?
Its really annoying when people try to bash an entire profession… look at chiropractors for example… they are frequently badmouthed by other doctors… however, there are tons of individual chiropractors who have gained tons of respect, working alongside neurologists, or orthopedists, or internists, etc. and as individuals they have found their niche and are contributing alongside other physicians who respect them a great deal…
It is true that podiatrists are the best at what they do, and that the lifestyle is amazing. admission standards might be lower, but you have to base a profession on what the students know when they come out, not when they first go in. There are smart people and ignorant people in all walks of life.
@ LovePodiatry:
“you have to base a profession on what the students know when they come out, not when they first go in”
Great statement.
Hi MDman. I actually chose podiatry over standard medical school. My GPA was above 3.6, and while my MCAT scores weren’t awesome, I did well enough to be competitive for entrance into MD schools. At the time I decided I may as well apply to podiatry school as well, just in case though. Turns out I was accepted into the MD schools I applied to, and in the end, I chose podiatry. Since I wanted to specialize in foot/ankle surgery anyway, it was just the more logical path. My GPA/MCAT scores were pretty average compared to the other MD school applicants, but compared to the pod applicants, I was in the upper echelon. As a result the podiatry schools offered me very substantial scholarships, whereas I received none from the MD schools I applied to. When I’m finished, I’ll be in about $150,000 less debt, and I’ll still be doing what I wanted to do. Furthermore, with MD school I would have had to stay in-state to avoid paying ridiculous out-of-state tuition costs. Since I hated the state I grew up in, this didn’t excite me either. With podiatry school on the other hand, I could attend school in the one place in the United States I’ve always wanted to live. The school was also private, and also happened to be cheaper, even without scholarships, than my in-state MD schools. Podiatry isn’t for everyone, but neither is MD school. It was a win-win-win situation for me.
Honestly, I’m surprised at the lack of interest in podiatry right now. Great field with an ever increasing patient pool (especially with diabetes on the rise), great income, and great lifestyle.
As for all those who question the pod’s training, I shadowed a practice of podiatrists who received a few cases where the local MD orthopod had completely botched a procedure, and they were sent to these local podiatrists. An MD doesn’t exactly guarantee quality health care. There are terrible, and terrific doctors of every title, MD, DO, DPM, DDS, etc.
I’m thoroughly enjoying anon’s posts. =D
hahaha… anon is quite a character… his stories are thoroughly entertaining
clearly all of these last posts are anon, using different names… i find it entertaining though…. is he an aspiring author perhaps??
Rules of LIFE:
My fellow podiatrists. Never. I mean N E V E R answer the phone if you do not know who it is.
2. Never. NO NO NO never ever sign a registered mail thing cuase it ain’t gonna be good news.
3. Always find a hiding place. Make friends with scumbags like caddypod nailgrinder and they like they are real I MEAN REAL BUMS
Yeah anon is beyond aspiring and gets paid less for words than a good op report.
It was an unusually sunny day when the huge hand came from the sky. Yes the sky was that color blue only dreamed of but a cumulus whisp grabbed me its fluffy marshmallowy tufts said : “Puuuu DiiiiiiUhhhhTreeee.”
The sky called me to be a podiatrist and ever since the message came I have embraced it like nothing else. Since it is a profession not at all Goyim it is difficult but I can do it.
it looks as though anon and the rest of his split personalities have driven this forum into madness and extinction… maybe its for the best
there are no uniform, consistent scope of practice in all 50 states
most practicing pods are jealous, catty, infighting :”profession” filled with inferiority complexed, physician posers. anyone who strives to be fully, completely trained as a foot and ankle surgeon, is quickly knocked down, and told we are podiatrists, etc….which means sharing office space with nurses, clipping, selling insoles, and selling bunion “surgeries”
in favor of texas ama court ruling was overturned in court to not include ankle for pods
there remains inconsistent training at all levels,
lower tier students and lower tier colleges are “accepted” to podiatry
do not publish in real journals funded by federal (nih)l or private foundation grants
Residencies–some are great, most are mediocre and not medically sound or consistent. 2 weeks in gen. surg???? others 6 weeks, remainder clipping toenails and trimming calloused skin at the nursing homes. that is not a physician. do you go to a dermatologist for a hair cut, or a hand surgeon for nail trimming?some do not take in house call, or treat/care for in house patients and lack in depth general medical hospital care.
if the pods want to be physicians than pass USMLEs 1 and 2, and 3, as it stands the podiatric political orgs fear change just like they have for decades.
one podiatry state org. had “residents” at a grocery check aisle giving routine foot “exams”—do the obs do this, or the genl surgeons, yet another albeit minor example of unprofessional behavior befitting a physician.
the above is absolute garbage… there is no such residency as outlined by the above poster… i know 2 pods who are chief of surgeries within 100 miles of myself. many work for ortho groups and do absolute ZERO nail care and are never told they arent foot and ankle surgeons… i cant stand people like that above. give me a break.
Wow, it is amazing how the podietrists call themselves podiatric physicians. I feel bad for orthopedic surgeons and also for the patients who go to podietrists to get any kind of foot “surgery.” It’s like optometrists calling themselves optometric physicians. Give me a break. I wonder if a patient came in with a purpura on their foot, if they would know what to do….They should just stick to clipping toe nails and doing diabetic foot exams.
“Lovepodietry” you are wrong. I have seen more than one carotid dissection after a patient went to a chiropractor to have any respect for what they do. It is all fake and NOT backed by science.
hahaha,
you obviously don’t know what your talking about. It is nothing like optometrists. Podiatrists perform the fullest scope of foot and ankle surgery including reconstruction rearfoot and ankle surgery. You should know your facts before talking.
DPMs have admitting privileges, OR privileges, full prescribing rights…that is why a lot of Podiatrists call themselves Podiatric Physicians…
Comparing a chiropractor to a podiatrist is like comparing a community college (2 year) nursing graduate to a D0/MD with 3 years of residency experience. It’s people like “hahaha” that make me glad it’s only the illiterate, pretentious folk who opt to make fun of our profession; whereas fully-educated DPMs/MDs/DOs/DVMs/DMDs/PharmDs/etc… (with whom I’ve had the pleasure of networking for the past five years) would be the ones who aptly cherish every individual aspect of the medical field (including podiatry as a valued medical/surgical specialty).
…so, you can spell “podiatric physician” but not “podiatrist”? I take that back, I’d say you are simply lazy. Get a job! Go back to school!
@hahaha:
P.S.S.> In case mathematics have also failed you, that’s a two (2) year education compared to an eleven (11) year education:
4 Years Bachelor + 4 Years Podiatric Medicine + 3 Years Residency
Podstudent&LovingIt and Someone: you guys are right on target. Hahaha is clearly an arrogant loser. He doesn’t deserve a response… after all, although you point out accurate facts which prove your point quite well, someone like him will not change their opinion or open their mind at all… its like the old saying goes… “he who’s convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”. i choose not to associate with close-minded people like that.
facts are facts, rhea ipsa loquitor, most responses are those being defensive because of the vast amts of time, money, energy spent on a profession filled with in-fighting, jealousy, cattyness, and inferiority complexes, anyone who strives for full scope and physicians status is promptly told my the pods, that you are just a pod-shut and sit down. The pods seem to enjoy eating crumbs and eating in the basement. Backbones are not a prerequisite.
There are 50 states that have 50 different scope of practice, ankles/leg/foot/hand? there is no uniform scope–pod political orgs have failed to address this or cause real change in this regard.
Residencies are not consistent, nor equivalent in rigor/in-patient medical management, in-house training exams akin to MDs/DOs are not existent
Selling bunion surgery, orthotics, and sneakers does not constitute a medical/surgical practice
giving flip flop talks, or summer time shoe wear talks ( don’t walk on hot tar???) is embarassing and does not reflect well on the profession–this is not medical or showcases medical./surgical knowledge as an equal. What’s next, a dermatologist giving a talk on cool haircuts? or an optho talking about gucci sunglasses, or a gastro talking about the best hot dogs
1-hour on-line podiatry “boards” are a joke and nothing compared to the USMLEs
where is the research, federal, non-profit, research, bueller, bueller? in real journals, not throw away magazines
Practicing w/orthopods are few and far between, most pods are clipping, trimming, selling bunions, and doing nursing homes
Pods are in the same area at optometrists/audiologists in the military and NOT part of the medical corp
VA pod residents get paid significantly less than physician trainees
Licensing of pods in some states are in the same area as embalmers, real estate, and funeral directors not in the medical boards that regulate MDs/DOs.
The ACFAS left the APMA, so the APMA now has a “surgery” section to further muddy the waters of the political podiatry orgs
There is a huge difference between a podiatrist and a foot and ankle surgeon, akin to dentistry and OMFS, yet the APMA refuses to progress forward and educate the public on this.
Pod 2000 podiatry 2015 podiatry 200000 does not matter. things do not change because the schools are anemic and tuition driven. Dental and chiro rejects flock to the schools, and the schools suck them up like a hoover. Where is the selectivity? they cannot get 300 well-qualified students for the 7 schools from top-tier undergrads with excellent GPAs and MCATs?
Russ… i would say that a majority of your arguements were true about 20 years ago. Schools have now changed their curriculums to mirror allopathic medicine, and most have medical faculty teaching their classes. Chiro rejects???? are you kidding me?!! there is no such thing as a chiro reject!!! everybody knows that! your “scope of practice” negativity is also inflated… 44 states are basic foot and ankle surgery states… and ALL states allow pods full DEA prescribing rights. Nobody cares if it differs slightly between state to state. 90 percent of residencies now are 3 years with extensive training in all foot and ankle surgery, including reconstruction up through the ankle, and tibia fractures extending into the ankle. Selling bunion surgeries??? what does that even mean? every bunion patient i see whos unsuccessfully tried conservative treatment without results wants surgery… i dont try to “sell” it to them, its just the next logical step… anyone that has to sell it to their patient is asking for a lawsuit if its not perfectly done, or if there are any complications post op. all pods i associate with have busy practices built by primary care referrals, are on medical staff at hospitals with admitting privileges (this was not true 20 years ago! just like most of the negative things you point out). by the way i suggest you look at a recent podiatry board exam… i think youll be surprised at the level of difficulty. the arguements go on and on… the truth is, podiatry is really no different in practice than any other medical specialty…. limited scope, all that crap… who cares? thats why most of us chose it, so we dont have to deal with a lot of other stressful crap…. selling crap out of the office??? are you telling me that dentists and dermatologists and ophthamologists and tons of other doctors dont sell products that would help thier patients? is there something wrong with this? i see no problem with it, if it benefits the patient. could the quality of students be improved in schools? yes, but you exaggerate GREATLY. I do agree with some of your complaints, but i do think that the APMA wants the same things you do. and some of the things you point out are changing. I like being a podiatrist because i can help people and still have a life.
Go out and earn your own respect and help people with lower extremity pathologies. Be a great doctor and have a great personality with your patients and your medical colleagues… its a much more rewarding career than you give it credit for.
sell bunions??? lol
everyone always knocks on bunionectomy procedures. youtube it and come back here if you think its really that simple.
Bunion surgery can be quite difficult and must be performed by a qualified podiatric surgeon.
We have seen much infighting in podiatric medicine. Those who are truly qualified and are stellar are sometimes eaten by their own. It is unique to podiatric medicine, as perhaps, resentment or other jealousy of professional attainment nonsense. when one of our own does great, that is a truly wonderful thing. The petty squabbling needs to stop. and the organizations that represent podiatric medicine need to progress forward without politics and infighting and feathering one’s nest.
there are many states with various scopes of practice, in GA, you can operate up to tib. tub, yet in MA only the foot. this needs to be changed so all fifty states have uniform scope. Some states call pods a “health practitioner, CA, PA, and others a physician, others a podiatrist, etc…this is wrong==they are physicians (some are medical pods and others surgeons) and must be constistenly in a ll fifty states classified as such.
yes, in military, pods are in same class as chiros and allied health profs. this is not right and must be changed. The med corp consists of MDs/DO/DDS , DPMs need to be in there, why has this not occured?
The NBPME on-line tests were one hour, has this changed to an 8 hour test over two days akin to the MDs/DOs step 1 and 2 exams? If not, get rid of the NBPME and give the USMLE step 1 and require passing for all pods at end of year two going into year 3, this WAY overdue.
Pod surgeons and med pods should be able to admit their own patients without co-admitting with an MD/DO, has this changed and is this consistent in all the states?
There needs to be two board certifying tests: one for podiatric medicine and the other for podiatric surgery. having a forefoot and RF and ankle is too convoluted and ridiculous. mandatory 3 year intensive hospital based residencies for all pods, with optional legitmate fellowships. The residencies need to have consistent experiences with directors who are there b/c of substance/merit not b/c of politics, last name, or nepotism/croneyism.
Many schools are indeed tuition driven. this is a serious problem and results in many students who are not qualified to become doctors. period. frat boys, girls and other graduating with low grades and low mcats should not be applying to podiatric medical school. There were students with 14s on MCATs and 2.5 GPAs from schools we never of. it is sad, that the schools cannot attract great quality students who want podiatric medicine as their FIRST choice.
Yes, lack of research in medical journals is severely lacking. perhaps, pods are procedurely driven etc…and do not have time or the ability to maintain a lab, or be on academic faculty with grants etc….a few do and those are the exceptional docs.
The NBPME parts I and II are now 4 hours and 205 questions long.
Admitting privileges are hospital dependent. Check out the podiatry forums. 90% of the podiatry attendings that post have admitting privileges.
The lack of research is starting to turn. Look up Dr. Armstrong and Dr. Rogers.
Lovepodietry, honey, it’s SHE, not he. Women can be real surgeons too. Don’t be so *closed-minded.* hahahaha. To answer your question, I believe in what’s best for my patients. If my mother were to have foot surgery, I’d want an orthopedic surgeon. End of story. If she were to have eye surery, I’d want an ophthalmologist, not an optometrist. I have seen too many complications from you guys to have any trust in your training. Sure I will consult you for diabetic foot exams and toe nail clippings, but that’s about it. Perhaps the bunion surgery seems so difficult to you since you don’t have the proper training.
Did you know to be a board certified in ortho surgery you only need 10 foot and ankle procedures in residency? Look up Mike Pinzur, MD (foot and ankle ortho). He talks about the lack of foot and ankle training in orthopedic surgery. And foot and ankle fellowships are usually 6-12 months. Compare that to Podiatry which is 36 months.
Bunion surgery is no joke. People who think so are just plain ignorant. Youtube bunionectomy and come back here if you still think its simple.
You are a genius hahahahaha. I can’t understand why people are arguing against your posts. Everyone knows that ophthalmologists are better at surgery than optometrists.
Just kidding hahahaha, no pun intended.
Obviously, you are not a health care professional. If you were, you would know that optometrists do not perform any surgical procedures. Honestly, after reading your post, I would put my life in the hands of a podiatrist, Paramedic, EMT, nurse, LPN, CRN, MA, ER Tech, and even the janitor of the hospital floor before I ever let you treat me.
Women are great surgeons but unfortunately, I do not think you fall into that category. I am sure you are a great woman but maybe misinformed. Even the non medical hospital staff knows that OD’s only diagnose illnesses and can provide fairly non invasive treatments.
Dear Justin, Just some sisterly advice…It is generally not good to be authoritative and ignorant at the same time and it is better to do some research before you make false accusations. Optometrists can do surgery in Oklahoma and are now pushing for priviledges in other states. You can do your own research on this topic. hahahaha. Seriously.
hahaha… I just want to state the obvious here and point out that you are extremely annoying. i dont see the point in why you take time out of your day to write the garbage that you do… if you dont trust a podiatrist to do a surgery, nobody really gives a damn. Nobody also gives a damn about your haughtiness in pointing out that optometrist in oklahoma can do surgery. you are clearly not a medical professional, but perhaps a lawyer?? (im guessing lawyer because of the arrogance and the chip on your shoulder, but i honestly dont think you are smart enough to be a lawyer). i also dont think you understand the training that podiatrists go through. 3rd year STUDENTS are already versed in surgical procedures (including complications, indications, contraindications, recovery time, etc.) that ortho RESIDENTS get well into their program. this is a simple fact. yes some orthos are fantastic at foot and ankle stuff, and some podiatrists arent as good at it… but what you are doing is making rash generalizations about thousands of people. if you were smart, you would rethink this, and stop posting such things. its quite irritating and also baffling that you say that podiatrists “dont have the training” to do foot surgeries… are you serious? That is the whole point of 7 years of training! if we dont, then who does?? clearly a reasonable, nondiscriminating person will understand this… however, someone such as yourself who continuously says “hahaha” after every ignorant sentence you post… well im guessing not much is going to change in that proud, sisterly mind of yours
@ Someone:
Way to always come prepared with the statistics! you always have great posts! Glad to have you on board!
and by the way, HAHAHA…
I think its great that optometrists in Oklahoma are advancing their scope of practice, as long as they are trained to do what they are trying to doing. I think it would be foolish and discriminating to try to prevent a profession from doing something that its members are adequately trained to do. Thats called politics…
With the time you took to write those long replies of yours, it is so clear that you don’t give a damn. I am entitled to my own opinion and can freely state them, regardless of whether they are annoying to you or not. This is America not Afghanistan.
Good, wonderfully trained professionals. You can do their feet, they can take care of your eyeballs.
hahahahaha
First, I was merely imitating the harshness of your post. I am going to state the obvious. If my foot was crushed in an accident, I would want an ER physician, who is trained in a emergency medicine, to treat me. This is not because he or she is a physician, but because they are trained in Emergency Medicine. I would want a orthopedist to properly reconstruct my foot.
Now that I have stated that, I would like to say some of the thoughts I have on podiatry. If I thought I broke my foot and it was not an emergency, I would go to a Podiatrist. There is really no use going to see your primary only to pay him to tell you to see a podiatrist. If I was experiencing painful foot cramps, I would go see the podiatrist. The last time I told my primary about foot cramps, he said he couldn’t diagnose it if he didn’t see it cramp up.
Also, I believe that Podiatrists and other doctors of the health care field who are not MD’s, tend to have a more humble approach to patients and patient care alike. I enjoy going to my optometrist more than my ophthalmologist because the ophthalmologist acts like its the first time he has met me every time I have an appointment. I could complain to the practice manager that I feel ignored, but honestly, it is not worth. I still go every 2 years because my optometrist tells me its a good idea.
While I am on the topic of Optometry, I looked up what you said about Optometrists and surgery. You are right. I failed to pick that up. I admit it, I make mistakes and I failed to properly provide support for my claim. In Oklahoma, optometrists have been allowed to do laser surgery and have now been approved to do a few other surgical procedures. Actually, 14 procedures less than an MD. According to Oklahoma law, Optometrists are allowed to practice surgery only because Oklahoma law does not define what exactly surgery is.
The use of lasers in surgery as it pertains to ODs is spelled out in the law. It says lasers can only be used on anterior portions of the eye. It is very vague so Optometrists started working past the general guidelines. They began experimenting with different techniques. They went through additional training and continued with Con Ed Classes. If they have the necessary training, it should not matter if they can perform the surgeries as long as they are skilled, but I digress.
With the exception of Oklahoma, no other states allow their optometrists to perform surgery. While there is a push to allow them to practice this, they are being blocked by lobbyists who represent MDs. If it comes to surgery, I will choose who is a more qualified person to perform the procedure I want. If the guidelines are the same for both MD and DOs, I would gladly let a DO operate on me if he had completed more procedures.
I guess what I am trying to say is that an Optometrist can dilate eyes just as well as an Ophthalmologist. A combination of skill and training determines how good one is at a procedure. Certainly DOs are limited by their scope of practice but they perform some of the same procedures.
This is analogous to a situation I have been in. Currently I am a pre-dental student in college and I also work as a volunteer EMT INTERMEDIATE. I have volunteered for 2 years and love it. One of the procedures I am allowed to do is start IV’s and administer saline and D50. D50 is used in diabetic emergencies to raise a patients blood sugar. I use a glucometer to check the blood sugar levels. My protocol allows my to make a field diagnose of hypoglycemia and administer D50. I am sure people will read this and say that it is an easy thing to do. Yes it is easy and uses almost zero brain power, but thirty years ago, allowing prehospital providers to this procedure was a big deal. My training was only nine months, but I can start an IV as good or maybe even better than an RN with the same amount of experience, in the field. I say better because it takes a little talent starting a line in the back of a moving ambulance. 15 years ago Paramedics had to call in to start lines. Now, as an EMT, I don’t have to call that procedure in. I guarantee that if you got hurt and needed an ambulance, you would most likely want the EMT starting a line versus the RN who is just completing the required annual ride alongs. The reason being that the EMT has had more practice and developed more skill sticking people in the back of the rig. Most likely, in her setting, she is probably better with patients and knows more about IV drugs than an EMT.
I think I sounded arrogant in my response to yours because I do not like people who trash others professions. I am somewhat of an educated person. I am not going to say fully educated as I have not graduated college yet and I am sure this post has to many grammatical errors. Anyways, I have been to private school all my life. I have two more years of college left. When I am working as a volunteer EMT, I pick up patients who are some of the rudest people imaginable. I have been called names, spat on, swung at, cursed at, threatened, and worst of all, I have been called an ambulance driver. Despite having more education, high school dropouts seem to know more about my job than I do. I hope when I graduate Dental School, I can continue to volunteer. People do not have an open mind about other professions. The ideas that they have are set in stone. They will never consider an alternative suggestion. I wonder why I even responded to your post. Maybe I am trying to make up for all the things I would like to call patients I have transported who were disrespectful. I figured, since I can’t do it out there, I might try to have some effect during this discussion as I do not risk getting fired from a position that does not pay me. I know this feeble attempt to provide an opportunity for someone to consider other view points is a trite task at best.
I will leave you all with this. It is not the title that makes the practitioner skilled, it is the willingness of the provider to be the most competent one in his field regardless of his title.
yeah i think with respect to “turf wars” between optometrists and ophthamologists, or podiatrists and foot/ankle orthopedists, or Oral surgeons and ENT’s, etc…. most of the time these turf wars arent about training or real concern for patient care (although the doctors on both sides try to make it seem like that is their main concern)… in reality, these political battles are really only about…… drumroll…….. MONEY!!!! it is unfortunate but true
I totally agree. It is especially bad if someone in a less prestigious field ends up making more money than than someone with more training. Nurse anesthetists make almost 180,000 dollars a year. A intern or pediatrician makes much less but they have more training. The medical field is an interesting one at that.
THe problem remains of podiatric med./surg being in the same category in the military as chiros/PTs, and optometrists. They are in the medical service corp and NOT the medical corp. this needs to be rectified promptly. where is the APMA/ACFAS?
USLMEs part 1 must be passed by ALL podiatric medical school students promptly.
Does not matter if there are podiatric 2015 visions; they had that jibber jabber back in 1994, and nothing has really changed except for receding hair lines, greyer hair, bigger bellies, decimated 401ks, and more hot air spewing.
The public/patient love podiatric doctors and surgeons, however, the allopaths/osteopaths need to be better educated on what the medical pods and surgical pods do.
There is too much overlap and redundancy between orthopaedic foot ankle, and a podiatric surgeon–what is the difference? seems redundant and a waste of money to have a podiatry service and a f/a service–unless the pods are doing chiropodic duties which a pedicurist in the mall can do.
stop these american obscessions over money, treat your patients, treat them like family, if you are a surgeon, only operate when absolutely necessary. if the nurse gas passer makes 180K that;s great, they ‘kill’ patients and then wake them up. tey should be getting at least 180K. regardless or that academic status nonsense. all meaningless. except in status obscessed america, whereby $$$ trumps everything. stop it. stop it now. treat those patients, and treat them well. like a family member, like your sister, your bro, your grand pappy.
for the pre-dental student, there are general pods and foot and ankle surgeons. just like dentists and OMFS. please research podiatric medicine and surgery regarding this. a three year residency is now required for all podiatric physicians, with optional fellowships.
I apologize if my posts come across as harsh. I do not want to hurt anyone’s feelings here, and it seems that podiatrists are very sensitive and defensive about any criticisms of their field. However I wanted to point out that no matter how you slice it, there is a difference in training between an orthopedic surgeon and a podietrist. If I crash on the floor postop, I would rather have an ortho resident resuscitating me than a podiatry resident. If I get sepsis, I would much rather be on the ortho team than on the podiatry team. Becoming a nurse anesthetist is NOT the same as being an anesthesiologist. CRNA’s are not allowed to practice independently. If I ever have any kind of surgery, I would want a real anesthesiologist taking care of me. If I’m having a baby, I will go to an OB not an independent midwife. I seriously believe that you need to know the limits of your education and not keep pushing for more surgical priviledges because you want more money. If a patient needed a retina procedure, I would send them to a retina surgeon. We are not perfect. We have to know our limits. It is bad for patient care to just care about money. If you want to be a surgeon go to medical school, learn the basic concepts of surgery, see all kinds of surgery from ortho to neurosurg to GI to trauma to vascular, etc. Learn how to manage medical issues that may arise. Learn ID, learn derm, learn rheum. Learn how to do a proper physical exam other than on the body part on which you are operating. You will be a better surgeon and much better trained. It may be the reality of the world, but it is really not fair to the patients to have all these different types of “surgeons” who have had limited training. I don’t doubt that you have good training in medical evaluation and management of foot problems. I do however, doubt the extent of your surgical training. Anyway, I don’t want to drag this on. You guys obviously do not want to hear about the limitations of your field…you just want to prove a point, which is incorrect so you can keep making more $$$.
Your post makes a little more sense. I decided that I want to go to Dental school because it will lead to further careers like orthodontics. I want the life of working 40 hours a week and a nice salary. I have never wanted to be an MD. The job of an EMT gives me the rush I need. Looking back at my life, I never thought that going into housing projects would be rewarding, but it is. I have paid my dues to society.
The statement you posted regarding a midwife verses an OB/GYN makes sense because a mid wife does not have medical training certified by a national agency. What about paramedics and EMTs? I have assisted in 3 deliveries with my paramedic partner out in the field. All of them have been successful and resulted in zero complications. One was in the patients house and 2 were in the back of the ambulance on the side of the highway because we could not get to the hospital in time. When we perform a filed delivery, there is no anesthesia. It is like the old fashioned way. I would like to ask you this simple question. Bare in mind that this is hypothetical and since I don’t know you, I am not making an assumption that you would ever be in a situation like this. Say you were pregnant and started having contractions that were 3 minutes apart and you had no means of transportation. The ambulance arrives and transported you to the hospital. While in route, you start going into labor. The paramedic tells the EMT to pullover because the baby has to be delivered. The paramedic tells you that that your life and the life of your baby are at risk if the baby is not delivered immediately. You have to make a decision. Would you let the paramedic deliver your baby? Or, Would you tell him that you do not want him to and would like it delivered at the hospital? This is of course is after the paramedic informs you that not allowing EMS to perform a field delivery could compromise the life of yourself and your baby and you have signed a waiver acknowledging you know the risks and won’t sue the EMS providers if one or both of you die in route to the hospital? What choice would you make? The paramedic has been working for 15 years and the OB/GYN is 2 years out of residency. It is kind of trick.
How does this relate to podiatry? In the example above, a paramedic is so far down on the hierarchy that he or she cannot compare to an MD. On average, paramedics have 6 months of EMT training and 2 years of Paramedic training and most only have a high school degree. Podiatrists have 4 years of professional schooling. In order to perform surgery, they undergo 3 years of residency. One year of residency less than an MD resident. They have the opportunity to seek different fellowships after residency. They are required to be ACLS certified and carry DEA numbers to prescribe medication. Contrary to most medical shows, when a person crashes on the table, it is a very simple procedure. The doctors rarely put their hands on a crashing patient. It is usually nurses who perform chest compressions and respiratory therapists who manage the airway. The MD manages the whole situation and is in control and orders that certain drugs are pushed. I guarantee that a podiatrist office is equipped to handle emergencies. Complications happen and if they were not equipped to handle them, they would get sued.
I think I understand finally what you are getting at. In a sense, you feel that somehow patients are being mislead when they see a podiatrist. Podiatrists exacerbate the situation by a desire to make more money. I think that is an unfair assumption and an overgeneralization of a whole profession. I hope someone would call my out if I stated that I am smarter than public school graduate schools because I graduated from a private high school. I am a more qualified person because of that. I had to write 3 ten page research papers when I was a senior and public school students were stilling doing 5 paragraph essay. Statements like that do not carry any weight and they do not provide a basis for an argument. Purposely calling out the limitations of one’s practice and wondering why people get upset is exactly like sticking your hand in a hornet’s nest and wondering why they the hornets attacked you.
I will agree with you on a few of your points though. Every healthcare provider should not push the limits in regards to their scope of practice. I had a paramedic partner who argued constantly with medical staff about procedures and he no longer has a job. I do disagree with you about podiatrists and surgery. They only perform surgery if they complete the surgical residency program. They are licensed by the a national board and can practice anywhere in the US. The only professionals I have read pushing surgical limits about are Optometrists in Oklahoma.
I am a non bias person because like I said earlier, I do not want to become a podiatrist and I do not want to become a doctor. I will leave you with this: If Podiatrists are so inept at performing surgery, how come they are allowed to?
hahahaha wrote: “If you want to be a surgeon go to medical school, learn the basic concepts of surgery, see all kinds of surgery from ortho to neurosurg to GI to trauma to vascular, etc. Learn how to manage medical issues that may arise. Learn ID, learn derm, learn rheum. Learn how to do a proper physical exam other than on the body part on which you are operating.”
Your understanding of the medical training a podiatrist receives misguided. Today’s podiatrist takes courses or has clinical rotations in every subject you have listed, with the exception of neurosurgery. They do learn and are trained to give full physicval exams, and are trained to handle situations should a patient crash on the OR table. If you crash on the floor post-op, podiatrists are trained to resuscitate, they have to be (although I concede the orthopedic surgeon will likely have more experience dealing with this). If you get sepsis, neither the podiatrist or the orthopod will treat you. Both are qualified to diagnose the problem, however neither have the sufficient training to handle it, and will refer you to an infectious disease specialist.
Although a podiatrist’s expertise is in the lower extremity, their knowledge of the human body extends far beyond that, as it must. There are people connected to the feet they treat. They are more than qualified to perform surgery in their area of expertise, handle emergency complications that might arise, as well as diagnose and refer their patients to more qualified physicians for any complications that doesn’t pose an immediate threat to the patient’s life.
TO Hahaha:
I see your little apology up there (and even as you aplogize you defend your blatently harsh and inaccurate posts) but you still miss the point! Podiatrists dont just learn the foot in podiatric medical school… it is not 1950 anymore! why dont you take a look at the curriculum and take a look at the case studies in podiatry school and take a look at the present national boards?! Instead of assuming that we only learn the foot… that is what is so annoying about you i must say – the fact that you make assumptions that podiatrists are trying to “expand their surgical scope just to make more money” when in reality, podiatrists only seek to do the surgeries that we are ALREADY trained to do… this is the point that you are missing. the other MAJOR point you are missing is that you point out “limitations to our field” which in reality, are only limitations in your own mind about what our eductaion consists of… that is what i would like for you to understand… that ignorant statement you made about preferring an ortho to revive you if you passed out on the OR table – do you not know that we spend a great deal of time on emergency medicine??!! no, of course you dont realize this, otherwise you wouldnt say such annoying things…
The Shredder above me said it accurately.
ACLS certification IS required in many hospitals, no problem handling a full code, or crash cart, or code blue,
and MDs also have 3 year residencies,===peds, IM, FP.
Podiatric surgeons and genl pods==3 year residences.
well, I guess that settles this matter. HAHAHAHA obviously does not know what she is talking about. It would be one thing if she had adequate support but she did not. Don’t bring a knife to a gun fight.
hahahaha,
How come you don’t respond to my post? Let me quote it for you…
“Did you know to be a board certified in ortho surgery you only need 10 foot and ankle procedures in residency? Look up Mike Pinzur, MD (foot and ankle ortho). He talks about the lack of foot and ankle training in orthopedic surgery. And foot and ankle fellowships are usually 6-12 months. Compare that to Podiatry which is 36 months.”
A very prominent Foot & Ankle Orthopedic Surgeon says that the majority of Orthopedic Surgery Residencies lack in foot and ankle training.
Yes I am calling you out. I dare you to give a thoughtful and educated response.
Podiatric physicians and surgeons are no different than OMFS or hand surgeons, opthamologists, ENTs, etc…we have not heard of the ENT doing ankle fusions, or the optho doing whipples, or the hand surgeons doing cataract surgery.
Training yrs==4+4+3+ opt. fellowship.
Facts are facts.
For those ignorant of the podiatric medical field, here is a sample of what the first 2 years course work entails at a typical school.
(NOTE: Most of these schools, such as the example below, HAVE PODIATRIST AND MEDICAL STUDENTS enrolled and taking in the same courses for their first 2 years.)
D.P.M. 1st-year curriculum
Introduction to podiatric medicine
Basic life support
Biochemistry
Honors PBL biochemistry (elective)
Anatomy
Histology
Immunology
Physiology
Microbiology
Honors PBL microbiology (elective)
Physical diagnosis
Pathology
Neuroanatomy
Pharmacology I
D.P.M. 2nd-year curriculum
Pharmacology
Endocrinology
Cardiovascular/Respiratory
Hematology
Lower extremity biomechanics
Neurology
Gastrointestinal/Nutrition
Renal
Lower limb anatomy
Behavioral medicine
Clinical podiatric medicine & diagnostics (includes radiology)
Clinical podiatric biomechanics & surgery
Medical research and writing
Year 2 and 3 are rotations followed by a 3 year residency.
DPM’s are experts of the lower extremity. I am an orthopedic surgeon in a 400 bed hospital. Our Ortho department houses 18 orthopedic surgeons and 12 podiatrists. We respect DPM’s where I work and never question their judgment when it comes to foot and ankle, as they know far more than we do.
Also understand that not every DPM is a medical school reject. Most of my Podiatric surgeon colleagues make well over 250k and work 40 hours a week. They chose that type of lifestyle and avoided the 60hr shifts of orthopedic surgeons.
Please be respectful of all healthcare professionals. In the end of the day, DPM’s help their patients and put a fat smile on their faces. Thats all that matters.
Lot’s of bickering name-calling, boasting, self-loathing, self-aggrandizement and all-in-all not much different from any other endeavor. Looks like whatever decision the chap who started this thread makes or made was pretty well researched. The internet gave rise to so much information, positive and negative alike that an informed choice is right before you – especially when it comes to podiatry.
Brings to mind the movie, `The Matrix’ when Morpheus offers the unindoctrinated Mr. Anderson/Neo to the table. He lays it out, explaining concisely that he can choose to continue to embrace what he thinks he knows and continue on with life as he believes it to be, or find out the way things really are.
In podiatry, the way things really are is subject to each pre-podiatry student’s research prior to commitment to 4yrs of school and the graduate podiatrist’s individual interpretation consequential to their education, training and experience. Some have regrets, some go on for another doctorate and many DPMs excel and do indeed make a largely flawed system a tad better.
It’s all about choices. We’ve all made some that were good and some that were not so good. Sometimes it takes a while to figure out what puzzle the pieces fit into.
Wow Anon/Caddypod… did we catch you on a good day?? I liked your post… Medicine in general faces these same issues you refer to… and Matrix is one of the greatest movies of all time
LovePodiatry. Thank you. Just trying to be helpful. Don’t forget to go to the almost uncensored site – it remains a break from reality and a dab of the absurd. Caddypod as ever was.
Podiatrists = Toenail Clippers, period. They aren’t doctors, and aren’t physicians. They don’t attend medical school. One of their schools is named Scholl, after the foot pad company! LOL
uhhhh…Scholl College is named after Dr. William M. Scholl, MD the founder of the school and the company. He was an MD who saw the need for specialized lower extremity care.
Hey toenail clipper. Duh. Who cares? Follow the thread on the almost uncensored podiatry site and read on. I left podiatry went to work caddying, bussing tables, and livee beneath a bridge. My student loan debt is probably more than most folks will make over a decade. If I could get a job clipping toenails…ahh then maybe remove a nail plate…even better and maybe, just maybe do a matricectomy, I’d be thrilled. And if a dream were to become reality the NEED to do ostectomy might arise. The thrill of it…someone someone someone. It’s all in the eyes of the actions that define our lives. Names and titles will not ensure contentedness yet your assertions are contentious.
I’ve been lurking about the podiatry sites and MD sites and think it’s high time we take a cue from Pope Urban. Yep. Poditry needs a crusade. I know the Knight’s Templar have been over exposed in Davinci Codish, National Treasure-like movies and the History channel and such. So we need a new twist to mine the wealth of secret knowledge beneath the metaphoric Temple of Solomon and bring darkness to light. Yes.
There are so many organiztions and suborganizations and letters after the names of podiatrists that I figured it’d be a good idea to start a new organization:
Podiatric Utilization of Total Zealotry
This could be appended to any title you have and would easily clarify to your fellow podiatrists your inclinations as well as your sense of humor level.
Think of it, Jane or John Doe, D.P.M., P.U.T.Z.
I just wanted to point out that I am unhappy with myself and therefore take it out on podiatry. I wanted to become a DO for my whole life but ended up becoming a chiropractor, so you can understand my frustrations right? I am a loser and I make foolish claims without researching them, and I probably will never change
Toenail Clipper. T C. Let’s see here T C Thymine Cytosine, the pyrimadine bases that make up the letters of the genetic alphabet, at least two of them, The purines being Adenine and Guanine. Put `em together and you’ve got the letters of the genetic code A T G C…the triplets make up the rungs of the DNA ladder and translate out through the ribosome into amino acids and on into proteins. You know this. That makes you OK= smart enough to make a fool of yourself every now and then. You’ve contributed to the general absurdity of this board and raised the level of consciousness just enough to elevate us whacko’s – go out and enjoy your life. Don’t let the letters after your name define you, just do the best at what you do and try to look at the craziness of the world and grin. It ain’t so bad after all- But if you’re really depressed you best see a psychiatrist. I am merely a humorist.
Caddypod as ever was, D.P.M. PUTZ
enough of this american garbage. start living and stop discussing degree nonsense, and ‘prestige’ nonsense-you cannot eat prestige. all of us are slaves, some higher paid wage slaves living in america. most work for millionaires and billionaires as their stooges, saps, and fools hopping on the hamster wheel of american “life”. endless meetings, 3-ring binders, and corporate mumbo jumbo with lawyers to sue at their whim. thanks to NO tort reform.
just enjoy your moments on earth and smile, work to help your patients and stop the american “prestige” nonsense of who’s degree is sexier–like having a contest on which is better, horse faeces or dog faeces.
another thing that we notice too, are the bachelor degrees after a podiatrician’s name–
John Smith, BA, DPod, PMD, FATFAS, Nuclear Foot Surg. Dipl.
enough, IF you have a doctorate that is all you need, bachelors degrees are understood to have been obtained especially at the doctoral level.
Nicely put Russ. But I have known Podiatrists here in the U.S. of A. who regularly dine on fast-food prestige. Largely these podiatric colleagues are members of the Council for Remarkable American Podiatrists AKA C.R.A.P. and are entitled to append the title after their names. It corresponds to podiatrists in the US’s predillection to utilize titles in some F. Scott Fitzgeralidis manner.
John or Jane Doe, D.P.M., CRAP
Yep. We are pawns and dine regularly on verbiage not roughage, abstractions not essential nutrients. Our gene mutations throw our ribosomes out of whack direly in need of repair. They read the triplet words (CAG-glutamine, AAA -Lysine and so on…) that make up the DNA ladder through a prism.
The inbreeding of podiatrists makes for a grand orchestra of banjo players
with ever deteriorating internal dialogues in a land where politics without principles is the norm and wealth without work is expected and on and on. No you cannot survive on prestige or conceptual castles of clouds, but; as Morpheus, the archetype in the Matrix movie said: “The choice is yours, Neo.”
Here we have a profession where free will has mutated – the choices to repay student loans are nill. The lenders will dog young pods for years like the Terminator in pursuit. Yes, hamsters on a wheel. The reasons are many but the young pod (and old alike, fixed in their ways) know the expression made famous by Terminator features: “I’ll be back,” intstills a lifelong cycle of keeping up with keeping up.
Wow, I’ve rambled on … time for breakfast, will it be horse or dog faeces? No matter I have to beef up my Svedberg units.
Anyone seriously considering Podiatry should do their homework. Do not listen to sources who only tout the positives. Look at every angle. The almost uncesnored podiatry site has something like ten years worth of posts. Some are outright dumb and some are not. It is worth hearing the voices of those who have not been pleased with podiatry as it is important to listen to those who have.
caddy pod as ever was is intelligent and witty.
it is simply amazing to listen to these american students/residents/practitioners obscessed over status, degrees, titles, and other trivial nonsense meant for sheeple and the masses.
We are all worm food. The rat race will never stop as there are always going to be a flow of tools and fools willing to toil away for 5-6 figs and gigs-whether that involve feet, legs, hands, or nails.
so keep waking up at 5-6AM, rounding, and bounding, wittling on patients, publishing in magazines that are primarily based on neponomics and having the right last name. Hamster wheeling in the rat race of american life. 65-70 time to call it quits, by then disease, arthritis, and bad eyesight rule. but, you gave your all to the job and that’s what matters. who cares about your life.
Really go to the almost uncensored podiatry network site. It’s terribly funny, absurd and informative. These are raw comments by frustrated no-holds-barred people.
When is the uniformed scope coming. It has been >15 years of talking and not enough doing.
15 years? Since 1975 we’ve heard nothing -in the USA- we’ve heard nothing but promises and statements from other podiatrists that we need to make changes.
This is how the system works:
I have witnessed those who wish to make change: Podiatry students and residents throughout the country join local, state and national organizations to make changes. They tried and tried but the obstacles of a country where state law governs the scope of practice requires political clout. That sort of influence requires lobbyists who influence state politicians to write bills, pass bills (this is a process in the state house of representatives and state senate where bills go from committee to committeee) and, if passed (many end in committee meetings because opposition rears its head) and then, if passed by house and senate have them signed by the governor into law. Sometimes the governor vetoes the bill. It ends there.
It is a complex process and most bills are not single issue statements they deal with several items, a sort of wish list of donators to a politicians campaign fund. Being a politician in most states is a life time job. Politicians get asked by way of contributions to help an array of groups from anesthesiologists, bridge builders, contractors, dog catchers on down the list to the podiatrists. Because there are so few podiatrists in most states and the podiatrists rarely agree with each other there is usually limited funding to pay the lobbyist to lobby or influence the state senator and congressman. Most forays into politics by podiatrists is met with opposition by groups not knowledgable about podiatry or extremely knowledgable about the seedy underpinnings of podiatry based upon their education, training and experience.
Be mindful, podiatry schools do have something to do with this. Do they offer up nationally recognizable testing? Are all the colleges of podiatry teaching the same material? Is there unification in the training of podiatrists? What is the curriculum of podiatrists and is it suitable to allow for expansion of scope of practice? There are a lot of subjective and anecdotal notions, but; the fact remains that there is no particular protocol within the body of podiatry itself comparable to the protocols and parameters of medical and dental schools. Change could begin with the school and the school charter with a heftier and less watered down curriculum and a facillitation to pass similar examinations qualifying ones ability to perform beyond the current scope of practice, But, it has been demonstrated time and again – Texas for example – that podiatrists, for whatever reasons have not met the challenge and as in the State of Texas were rigorously opposed by the political forces backed by huge donations and a signature from the governor a set back, Foot and Ankle surgeons are not permitted to work on ankles in that state. This is an example of how the forces of American laws rules and regulations impact a tiny profession. The very fact that there are so many certifying boards, subspecialties and infighting in podiatry reflects a continued and continuous lack of even having a chance to make any meaningful changes. In some states there have been great strides, while in others not much has been accomplished regardless of how hard podiatrists try. The fact that I glean from all this is that podiatrists are not generally accepted by the heavily populated mainstream in medicine who have tremendous influence, as I mentioned, with their state senators, congressmen and lobbyists.
I may very well be incorrect but it requires a state charter in some states to change the degree and an accreditation from a state and/or national body to sanction a school to grant such a degree. That is why many opt to attend an offshore school where the threshold is somehwhat lower and licensure to practice in that country can be obtained. The US and most US states recognize international medical graduates (IMGs) and allow them to sit for the NBME exams subsequent to passing the ECFMG.
Several years ago, about the time Podiatry Bytes hit the wires and was poo poo’ed by the so-called mainstream podiatrists there was a podiatric school working in tandem with an offshore MD granting school. This may have opened doors for podiatrists who attended. It might behoove podiatry students who are already in debt and with dubious futures to explore some of these offshore schools. It would not require an act of congress to pursue that extra degree and still, if they do indeed wish, practice podiatry. Yes, there are solutions and as someone who has seen many of the problems over an extended and prolonged period of time, I truly see the problems. No one entity in particular can be blamed for the mess which is was and likely will be podiatry. There is no one singular solution to personality issues, petty internacene disputes and ubiquitious ramblings about lack of change.
Change begins with the individual. Working within a system – political volleying – has proven time and again at best a series of Pyrrhic victories leading to minimal modifications in the scope of practice in most states. Working within the educational system an individual can choose to continue their general education and the issues regarding uniform scope become moot.
The choice is yours. A life-time of frustration and bickering or a chance to focus on the deptha and breadth of medicine and surgery with unlimited access to increase your body of knowledge. This all translates into sound patient care.
I know that getting an md degree is not just a couple letters, it is an introduction into a world where knowledge and information in healthcare is not denied based on the dpm degree. Understanding and learning in medicine is a lifelong endeavor. An added degree will open doors within yourself as you gain access to material -forbidden- to podiatry.
Or you can try and rumble through the walls of politics armed with a history of disarry. There is simply not enough confluence in the ranks of podiatrists, nor are there enough podiatrists to go through political channels or enough money to fund these things.
Sincerely, Caddypod as ever was.
I wrote the previous dissertation of sorts to instill some change within yourself. I have written these things anonymously for decades and have been a frequent poster on the Almost Uncensored Podiatry Forum Site. The so-called `mainstream’ sites disallow or preclude the previous thoughts and suggestions from their forums. I have been kicked off of the SDN in the past as well as the Podiatry Arena. There have been issues of a bizarre nature where someone used my sign in name Caddypod pretending to be a smarmy MD looking down on podiatry and castigating the profession as a whole. Those antics went on for years on the uncensored site. I persisted in getting my points of view as noted in the previous post above and hopefully my pseudonymous handle will not be some source of wicked vectoring and subject me to the stalking nonsense which occurred a few years back.
It’s obvious that I feel strongly about podiatry and what CAN be. My experssion of these changes and such are laced with huge amounts of satire, humor and zaney antics. So if you want to remain in the Matrix (Warner Bros. 1999) proceed as you are and believe what you wish, If, as referenced in the above feature you find that there is a “splinter in your mind” follow the rabbit through the rabbit hole. It does make for a fuller richer life. Money and material things are not the sine qua non for happiness.
Clearly you can identify me by my writing style and persistence. No. I have never given up on trying to help. There are too many DPMs that are taken advantage of and I have taken it upon myself to help those who cannot help themselves using the tools at my disposal. Specificall humorous, anecdotal aphorisms to get across concepts unseen and largely uncared for DPMs stuck in the rut.
Would be podiatry students read the previous post and print it up forward it to your school share it with your friends. I can be found lurking the boards and you know where to find me. I’m under the bridge hanging out with my miscreant crew of podiatrists drinking Sterno and taking one odd job or another. Zill Crapmonger, Nailgrinder, anon anon and all the other characters all there to anonymously light a flame in your mind.
Caddypod as ever was
Caddy you make sense. Censorship of facts is done regularly on many “mainstream” cheer leading pod sites. The truth needs to be transparent to all those that contemplate the profession.
thank you again.
Caddypod,
sounds like you went to podiatry school, did a real crappy 2 year residency, sucked at your job and could not excel in the field of podiatry. Now you are bitter about it and you go spreading falsified rumors using your lame “humor and zany antics.” I pity your sad life. quit smoking so much, and find a new hobby.
Podiatry is getting bigger and better than ever before. Look at the admission requirements and the application profile of some of the students. Avg GPA is now a 3.3-3.4 and the MCAT is now 25-26 (for Scholl). These results are similar to DO schools. Podiatrist are doing surgery in 50 states, and making well over six figures working 40 hours a week. Stop hatting. either get with the program or get lost…..
adcom:
is that the sertraline hydrochloride talking or do actually believe what you wrote.
1+1 does not equal 4.
I’ve waited nearly two decades before releasing the following manuscsipt, It is a series of essays and commnentaries including but not limited to internet posts by me over an extended period of time, The interviews and sources in the public domain have been scrupulously reviewed for any potential conflicts. The humourous non-fiction narrative is based on facts. No usage in this manuscript will be published without proper authorization and fact checking, proper releases executed by contributors as well as vetting of material performed by the publisher and their legal department. The guidlelines for this title are in full compliance set out by the American Society of Journalists.
The Book of Podiatry, Great Achievements that Weren’t Good Enough
Copyright 2011
A portion of the profits from this title will be donated to charitable organizations.
How you like me now? Bitch.
Most surgical pods and non surg pods put in much longer hours than the farcical 40 hour week puported by PR campaigns and recruiters. Have not heard of MD/DO schools requiring recruiters to sell podiatry. You are telling me that there are not enough well educated, talented people that truly want to study ankle (in a few states) and feet that cannot come up with 800-1000 students in america? that is embarrassing. We read the that school’s website, the website states that MCAT is strongly encouraged–what does that mean? words are very impt. it is NOT required? strongly encouraged?.
could not find the MCATs/GPAs from colleges people have actually heard of. Most MD/DOs schools place these stats prominently on their websites b/c they are happy with the applicant pool that shows suggested potential.
As for podiatrics getting “bigger and “better” than before. that sounds like more PR firm talk. Ask the texan pods what they think, or the UT pods, or the MA pods. or the allied health status in the military, or the lack of universal training, rigor, consistency. etc…. you are obviously a student/resident that needs to live life and love before commenting on your chosen emotionally attached future foot profession.
Ankle and foot medicine can be interesting, if so, go to medical school, ortho residency then obtain a 6 month-1 year fellowship. and you can be foot and ankle surgeon in ALL 50 states and you do not have to ask permission for rearfoot or ankle or anything proximal to the midtarsus.
for >170K in student loans that care not forgiven or have loan repayments akin to NPs, PAs, RNs, MD, DO, DDS (why NOT podiatry???), honesty is required with ones’ self and the profession.
A few years back someone – a heavily indebted DPM – had thoroughly researched the National Health and Public Health services ranging from tribal and rural relocations to repay a portion of their podiatry student loand. The results were published by the podiatrist. His letters of rejection were scanned and posted. There was no loan forgiveness for the podiatrist and to compound the fiduciary insult, the letters indicated that there was no need for podiatrists. This represents a small portion of the misrepresntations made by podiatry schools. The rejection letters were truly reflective of a degree of calumny puported by the podiatry schools working with lenders to maintain student populations at the DPM schools. The results of the DPM researcher reflected the previous post that MD, DO, DDS, RN, NP providers are deferred to with respect to loan forgiveness in exchange for relocation and national service (USA).
I am noting this in absence of my notes which contain the address(es) of these so-called promised sources of work for graduates.
Russ has brought to light several areas where the very nature of podiatry, it’s quiddity is revealed.
There is a fascinating site describing names and numbers of defaulted docs. It is reflective of the numbers of podiatrists unable (perhaps unwilling) to repay student loans. Perhaps the unwillingness component has a bit to do with the representations made by the podiatric propagandists. I ramshackle media machine that implied that podiatry is comparable to the alphabet soup of practitioners as noted in the previous post.
Regarding Adcom’s post: Am I bitter? No. I don’t smoke and never did a podiatry residency. Then again my personal history is just that, personal. Getting personal is a misdirect often used on these boards and by imbeciles, small children and the uneducated to place their agenda -usually fatuous – innapropriately.
all rights reserved
Caddypod as ever was
No loan repayment programs–you’d think all the APMAs, and APMSAs and other acronyms of clubs would have done something to alleviate the massive amts. of loans that many students must borrow to attend a podiatric school. Was there a task force set up to address this? and if so, what was DONE?
Draw a line down a piece of paper:
look through MD journals, jot # of job openings
look through podiatric journals, jot # of real job openings (not 1099 nonsense)
Rea ipsa loquitor.
Tom, your right about job opportunities advertised in professional journals for podiatry. Actually the lack thereof. The podiatry journals list practices for sale, preceptorship positions and other so-called opportunities for podiatrists. Decades of researching these items and following up with the assistance of friends, associates and confederates thse so-called opportunities are no more than positions of servitutde largely resulting in some `benevolant’ podiatrist offering a small compensation for a `trained’ podiatrist to come in and do menial procedures and schill for the practice. Is there a preceptorship in schill work? The MD/DO journals are replete with opportunities. Having an MD degree (moreso than DO depending on specialty) ) will garner you a viable commodit on ntational mailing lists which headhunters access. Job offers for really do come knocking.
For the skeptics, please, I implore you to contact some medical headhunters. A good start to understanding the nature of the DPM degree’s marketable skill in the US in 2010 would be to embark upon a series of telephone calls to medical headhunters – good point Tom – they advertise in nearly every ACGME journal and newsletter and are ALWAYS looking for medical talent. In nearly 30 years of owning a DPM degree I think the two letters looking for podiatrists came from practitioners who were disciplined by the state board facing suspension. I may still have copies in my files. I recieve at least two or three letters a week from headhunting companies based solely on the fact that I stayed in school. I’m too old and comfortable in my current position to do more than comment on these things and incorporate them in the material in progress. As I mentioned the only way to institute change in Podiatry is through education, my goal is not to bash podiatry, but to bring darkness to light and hopefully spare some minds from a life long battle over silly nuanced issues which I have seen destroy potentially excellent talent. Talent thwarted by a profession which has routinely and matter-of-factually exists to accomodate those not willing to take the extra period of time to consummate a solid position to practice their art and science. I might be wrong on several levels, but I would not wish podiatry on anyone as a career choice. This isn’t bitterness. It’s fun.
I have to take issue with being a physician of the foot and ankle. Many states do not classify pods as physicians. Health providers, allied health profs, or podiatrists in same sentence with optometrists and chiropracters.
Also, many states do not allow pods to medically or surgically treat the ankle. So, how are pods “complete and specialized physicians of the foot and ankle?”
(as shown above, article, 2nd para , last sentence in the by the podiatry student)
Is this a misprint or an honest error?
“How are pods complete and specialized physicians of the foot and ankle?”
Stacey… You apparently know very little about podiatry and do not realize that many pods work in orthopedic groups now, doing ALL foot and ankle cases, involving trauma, amputations, etc. Even those who do not work in ortho groups frequently do this if they feel comfortable with it and have privileges. There are podiatric surgeons who are Chief of Surgery in their respective hospitals… I dont think they would give this position to an Optometrist or a Chiropractor, do you Stacey?
In fact, one of the most annoying things a podiatrist has to listen to is us being compared to “optometrists and chiropractors”. No offense to either profession, but they do not do surgery, nor do they do residency, and chiros do not even prescribe. Pods have full prescribing rights and in this day and age, all graduates are fully trained in all foot and ankle surgery, and many are THE foot and ankle surgeon in Ortho groups. (This was not the case when Caddypods old ass was in the profession)
“Many states do not allow pods to medically or surgically treat the ankle”
THIS IS INCORRECT. There are like 6 states that do not allow podiatrists to do SURGERY on the ankle, however we can still medically treat the ankle even in those states. It is also VERY unfair to label the podiatrists in that state, just because the state itself doesnt allow a procedure that 90 percent of all other states do…
“Is this a misprint or an honest error?”
I ask the same question about your entire post… Ill give you the benefit of the doubt though.
I put my $ on caddypod. How many pods are in ortho group.Real numbers. 5-10 out of 10K? I m going to MD school no matter how much it costs and what I have 2 do. Too young to be stuck as 2nd class citizen 4 rest of life. None of the arguments in favor of DPM alone hold H20.
2nd year student OCPM my podiaty school discourages the almost uncensored site and the unhappy podiatrists are loosers who cannot cut it. I read the posts and now it makes a lot of sense and worth looking into.
what about being “complete physicians”–many states do not classify pods as physicians–why is this purported in the referenced article?
are dentists, dental physicians? they are dentists. and they make no apologies for it. they own the mouth. a GP will not perform a cavity procedure, or clean dentition or perform extraction.
amputatations are strictly limited, perhaps to toes only in a few states. going by STATE laws. not happy talk purported my public relations firms. Ortho groups mainly DO will hire a pod, do to the bunions, hammertoes, and primary care stuff the orthos do not want to get hassled with for of course, a cheaper cost. Probably buy a pod b/w 100-150K, pre tax. are they partners, are they receiving K-1 dividend checks, or are they just an employee or worse an indepednent contractor (1099 tax forms).
pods ARE classificed in the military w/chiros and optometrist, speech therapist etc… they are NOT in the miliary corp like MDs, and DDS.
In Mass, pods are in the same registration as embalmers/funeral directors and real estate agents, electricians. yes, they have a board, but they are not in the Medical board.
LOL @ stacey… way to point out only random tidbits of negativity, and brush off all the overwhelming positives I stated… that seems to be your trend
Since you clearly have zero respect for podiatry, this will be the last time i respond to someone as biased and negative as yourself.
Your argument that pods arent physicians because many states dont classify them as such doesnt hold much water, since MOST states do. So who do we believe stacey?? just the ones that dont right?? Ok! and the military doesnt, but Medicaid does… so we should believe the military right?? Ok now i see where your logic is coming from!!
Pods are complete physicians of the foot and ankle, whether you like it or not, and whether the state of Massachusetts says it or not. If the military says you are an idiot, does that make it so??
“Ortho groups mainly DO will hire a pod” – first of all this isnt even true, and second of all, is there something wrong with a DO ortho?? Are they less of an orthopod because they are a DO?? (Actually to you they probably are, never mind)
New graduates can do it all. Dont take my word for it though, go visit a 3 year residency program. I would guess that in 10 years, the military and the states that are lacking will come around. Its only a matter of time before they fall in line.
We are NOT general physicians of course… we are specialized… thank goodness for that. it makes my life much easier. We are the best at what we do.
We are foot surgeons. Is that not enough? Do we have to be something more than that for some reason to impress you?
What profession are you in stacey? i bet i can find about a million negative random tidbits about your profession to post on here.
And just out of curiosity, you have apparent disdain for podiatrists, optometrists, and DO’s, but not dentists for some reason? LOL… dentists are awesome, but they dont do a residency and probably cant use a stethoscope, so I figured you would hate them for some reason.
“are dentists, dental physicians? they are dentists. and they make no apologies for it. they own the mouth.”
Pods are making apologies for it either… We own the foot and ankle (and soft tissue up to the knee and even hip)…
We are only defending our profession against negative and biased persons such as yourself.
“Probably buy a pod b/w 100-150K, pre tax. are they partners, are they receiving K-1 dividend checks, or are they just an employee or worse an indepednent contractor (1099 tax forms).”
I think they key word in your post is “PROBABLY”… that shows that what you are saying is purely BIASED SPECULATION. I had 2 attendings in residency that were part of ortho spine practices (MD even stacey!!) They each made over 300 and one was a partner…
SO I would guess that you once again are not speaking from experience, but from your own random opinons
You wanna be somebody’s bitch> be a DPM brush up on your coffee fetching skills and shoeshine skills.
Heh love podiatry–the AMA has stated that podiatry IS allied health profession–and the AMA is HUGE trade group that controls alot of things. rightfully or wrongly. they own gold and therefore make the decisions that affect pods.
Pods can do it all–no they cannot. ask the AOA, or the AMA, or the UT pods or the TX pods. or the causation of injury that pods cannot rule in court for b/c they are pods. It seems like that sertraline hydrochlorine is talking and not logic.
When I said that pods can do it all, I was referring to the level of training and abilities of the modern podiatrist… obviously there are a few states with stricter regulations, but you cant take credit away from pods in those states, its not their fault
The AMA and AOA are motivated by their constituents, who are motivated only by…. drumroll…. you guessed it! MONEY! Everyone knows that. The turf battles are only about money and pride. Is it fair? Of course not… does it need to change? yes, and I hope that the things you mentioned to change. I think we are on the right path.
I think podiatry is a great, rewarding career, and lucrative if you are smart and well trained… Ive saved more than one persons life in my short career by being the one to catch a DVT, or sepsis, etc. and ive helped ulcer patients to heal… these are meaningful things. ive been happy with the lifestyle it affords me and the living I am making. Are there some legislative battles we need to win still? Definitely…
I guess it just annoys me when people slam this profession and make it sound like its a joke or meaningless or something, just because of some random states regulation, or some political talk from some powerful rival source… I think people are focusing too much on themselves, and not enough on patient care. Ive built many wonderful relationships with patients which I am appreciative of.
Dear lovepodiatry,
I was annoyed when people slammed my car.
Some states would prohibit my driving at high speeds and others would not
different states in the US have different speeding limits.
I wanted to be an owner of that particular vehicle. Other owners of the same car encouraged me.
The car manufacturers made representations that it was the greatest car out there and had plenty of advantages and would be the envy of other drivers.
I was sold when I saw it and the salesman reinforced my predilection
Others told me it was not without flaws
There were those who had owned that type of car but were unhappy with it. I did not want to hear the naysayers. I only read and studied the positive reviews and talked to the owners who were content.
But some of the reviewers said it was a good car and I followed their recommedations.
These were meaningful things and helped my decision making process.
It was rewarding and had good gas mileage and it saved my life on more than one occasion. It looked like an expensive high quality vehicle and it got me where I needed to go.
After a while the car started to have some quirks, No one seemed to be able to figure out some of the problems. It broke down a lot and spent a lot of time in the shop. Repairs were expensive. I still had to make payments. I paid and paid and paid for a rapidly deteriorating car that I really could not drive to its fullest extent.
Was it a lemon?
I do not know. I held on to it thinking that the manufacturere would intervene.
I wrote them and joined booster clubs and attended rallies. It was fun and rewarding for a while.
The manufacturer claimed that it was on top of things and that they would get to backing up the car. Many miles were driven with the ups and downs I expected but remained confident in my decision to buy and drive this car. It turned heads and made me feel good to drive it. I just wish it was servicable at more locations like the more mainstream car I did not want to invest in. But the dealers and its certified mechanics assured me that the manufacturer was behind my choice one hudred percent.
I came across some hurdles when I could not find a mechanic to make some repairs to this particular car. The mechanic said he would not work on it and that it could not be driven over a certain speed. “But it was made for that sort of use,” I said.
“Not in this state,”
So I took my car and moved to another. It worked fine for a while but service got more and more difficult as years passed. I still loved that car.
I wrote the manufacturer many times. They did not give direct responses only brochures detailing how much they could do for me.
As time passed I got the idea that I might not have gotten a reliable product. It reached a point where it did not get me where I needed to go. No matter how hard I tried, I could not find the proper support. I know that there is nothing that exists in the automotive world in a vacuum, parts were scarce and many outlets did not support that brand. Some did, but they were rebuild parts that did not fit precisely as they should.
Finally the manufacturer went bankrupt and I was on my own still making payments on my lovely car.
Friends and family said to trade it in but I did not listen. I started to do some research as to what the naysayers were saying, about the pitfalls of that particular car. I was experiencing similar difficulties. But I loved the car.
The mainstream version of my car had some similarities, but; as I discovered, did not have similar problems and idiosyncracies. They – the other cars – drove nicely for decades and as time passed I saw that name-brand vehicles heavily populated the roads and could drive the speed limit in every state, and find mechanics and support around the world.
I never could drive it to its full potential. It had its limitations.
In sum I was convinced of purchasing a vehicle that never ran quite the way I wanted and expected. It was costly to repair, did not have the full array of equipment of the more mainstream vehicle and more difficult to attain vehicle. But I held on to something because I paid for it, made it became more and more difficult to service. All along I made payments, invested in in with repairs and was stubbornly combative to anyone critical of my car.
It never flat out broke down but it was not what I thought I bought into. I wish I would have bought the more versatile car.
I learned something from that experience: Read the reviews.
Excerpted from The Book of Podiatry, Great Achievments that Weren’t Good Enough. Copyright 2100 all rights reserved, by Caddypod as ever was (pseu)
Spoken like someone who wanted to be an MD, but being a DPM was the easier choice… For those of us who chose podiatry BECAUSE it was not MD, and actually knew what the profession was all about before getting into it…. i guess your longass story doesn’t really apply does it?
Many MD’s regret going into medicine because they feel so regulated by the government, or they feel taken advantage of by their hospital… There is no medical profession that is immune to politics. A common thread of the naysayers seems to be that MD guarantees happiness.
Clearly, some of the old time pods, who graduated decades ago, and did not complete a residency, probably experienced much more discrimination and felt much more inferior to other doctors
Shhh….some of us inferiority burdened old time chiropodists didn’t do a podiatry residency because we went to med school grew old and retired. You don’t know what inferiority is until you deal with real world life and death situations and become responsible for your patients lives. Grow up and take a look in the mirror. Your out of your element talking about anything in medicine until you’re in a position to have the privelage to care for the sick. Not just a body part.
So spare me the crap. I post here now and will continue to do so until the time comes when douchebags of your ilk catch on that there is not much of a comparison to medicine and podiatry but for the procedures. Describing the Grand Canyon to a blind person is futile.
My guess is your `choice’ of podiatry is fictitious. Contrarily, there is no politician who is immune to the forces of our health.
It is amusing that you presume to know anything at all about my personal history including but not limited to motivators, incentives and such.
all rights reserved
Haha… I have to say that I enjoyed your “zany humorous posts” more than those last two
What hoity toity posts. Who cares.
As for me, I don’t have health insurance and live under a bridge. I love it! Podiatry has been great for me. I can live the life I want and enjoy the little things without the responsibilities. You see, what’s important to some people varies. I dig my place in this world. Once upon a time I had it all. The `it’ being all the material things and what some of you posters call prestige – to me it was just a suit of clothes or a fancy car and big house. You don’t really ever own anything, the things end up owning you. You might say I live off the dole. So what. I dig c and c work but it is hard to come by. I learned a long time ago that being a DPM is not the same as being an md. I know some of you will post all sorts of wimpery winery and all but that’s just a fact. Ask any convenience store clerk or bartender.
It took years to get where I am today. I don’t have an office or any of the trimmings you guys are striving for. When I need money I either get a gig at a nail garden/nursing facility and use one of my cronies office to bill and store records.
Sure, it sounds creepy being homeless, but think of it this way: When you don’t have anything, you got nothing to loose. I broke free of the chains. Read the threads on the uncensored sites about how I got this nifty notebook computer and other DPMs like Zill Crapmonger, Nailgrinder and the other DPMs I hang with.
Lovepodiatry, just don’t start to get to lovin’ $, that’s what kills.
Oh yeah, I know lot’s of old DPMs who can match anyone here when it comes to downright laziness. The secret of my success or lack thereof is not giving a crap.
hey mr cotton pad, do u like star wars?? u remind me alot of one of those guys (or several guys, since u seem to be schizo) that likes to stay up late and wear his darth vader costume while watching
sci-fi shoes.
maybe u can teach me some english! I just love the way u speak, its so all over the place and incredibly illogical. but again, since you apparently are an MD (until you make up some other professional title to pin on your-self), I would love to ask you if u would please cut my nails. I will buy you a light saber at toys-r-us!
thanks mr caddypatch.
sincerely,
your daddy
SO I have followed this thread for a while, mostly out of entertainment, and I finally have to ask: Is Anon the same as Caddypod the same as Ananopod Exerption the same as Caddypod as ever was the same as Nailgrinder? Are these the same human being? I am confused because on one hand, he/she/they talk nicely about podiatry, then in the next post will bash it, and cuss rudely at the podiatry defenders, and then in the next post will relate a fictional story which makes no sense.
Some of their/his posts seem angry, some refer to themselves as “we”, and so all of these things are confusing to a the simple observer.
I do think the individual might need some counseling, at least one of his split personalities does
SO please tell us! I kind of doubt i will get the real answer from such a bizzare entity, but I do hope I can!
Great! I am insane. That is correctomundo…I have been driven mad by the madness of podiatry and YOU, my dear lucky poster of the day called it. Come on down and spin the magic buniion wheel! Yippee….(schizophrenia is not multiple personality d/o, look it up in DSM).
Listen up:
Imagine that there are jobs outside of podiatry that people get.
Take it a step further, they actually get paid to do this.
I make things up for a living. I do however have a DPM and an MD degree whoopeee – that’s for real. I don’t practice…this is what I do. This.
I doubt if you’ve gotten it by now, but the interplay between the characters creates subdivisions of conflict. English usage has its place, not in dramatic sequences.
Again, this is largely for entertainment purposes. The sense of humor – or lack thereof, is simply an interplay between characters. It certainly does take a spell this long to catch on, but; it works. There is some tension and evocative sequences. Different characters take on different positions in the debate.
Unbiased observer, good call.
By using fictional characters to bring out information I suspect we all garnered some amusement along with a bit more knowledge about ourselves.
Like I said, I do this for a living.
I really hope someone `gets it’.
Dear Daddy,
I’m so glad you finally found me. All those years at the orphanage were horrible. I learned my basic skills in advanced buffonery, schniding and skullduggery from the nuns, slave traders and card sharks. Now that I am grown up could you please send me plane tickets and license fees so I can join your practice? Maybe you can make some student loan payments. I forgive you for leaving me at the Grand Teton National Park. Fortunately the band of gypsies who took me in were good teachers but after a while they realized that my penchant for card tricks and wearing tin foil clothing drove them to dropping me off at the orphanage, Our Lady of Broken Metacarpals. I ran off at 14 and lived on the streets earning my way doing card tricks and playing chess.
I don’t know why you and mommy left me at the park but it turned out just fine. I look forward to joining your podiatry practice and the Star Wars technology you have.
Caddypod as ever was (I don’t know my real name)
most are hooked into the hamster wheel of american life. caught in the rat race, hooked into traffic, emailing, paper work, looking 70 at age 50. there is more to life than work and so called prestige. wake up. hamster wheelers. live life and enjoy your brief time here.
this jibber talking about degrees is analogous to comparing cat feces with dog feces.
LOL, good point Russ… outside of these forums, none of this really matters, and it does make us seem a little self-absorbed
Self-absorbed? Looks like a lot of steam needing to be released. 50 looking and feeling 70. I need a good laugh.
Some of these posts are hilarious and really make my day. Obviously the caddypod is a class clown. I love it. Keep it rolling. If you can’t laugh at yourself every now and then you need a vacation.
I just don’t see what all the bickering and criticism is about. Podiatrists work on feet. If you don’t want to do that then do something else. If you do want to do it, then be the best at it. Seems pretty simple to me. The rest is petty nonsense.
Who’s with me??
podiatrists work on bodies and their speciality is the foot and sometimes ankle, and sometimes, legs, and sometimes the hip, and sometimes the hand. and when you are in residency you do it all.
they can do it all–that is what the PR slogan says, and therefore it is true.
thank you. time to hang with das caddy pod under the bridge, he can be found on linkedlin too because he can do it all.
Russ, I agree with your first paragraph… however, i cant tell – are you more anti-podiatry or anti-American? you seem to criticize both quite a bit… just wondering
also, you question the point of the degree debating, but yet you participate in it… again Im confused.
Perhaps caddypod has rubbed off on you? what have you guys been doing under that bridge?!
not “anti”anything just stating well known facts, observations, and perceptions from travelling the world over, having a pulse, having an independent mind, and seeing vast differences of cultures and other countries. #1 depression, ranked last in social mobility, #1 health spending, bottom for health quality, bottom education, top for stress. those are facts. observations. winter is cold. water is wet. podiatry degree debating is dog feces v. cat feces. nonsense for imbeciles.
you cannot eat prestige, all the happy talk, sertraline hydrochloride smiles does not mean a thing, if it ain;t go that podiatry swing.
do rap, do rap.
Agreed.
101010 how come podiatrists with nothiing to say always talk homo talk. Usuallly mens who try to get in touch with their feminine side have gotten in touch with someones masculine side.
I learned how to blow myself in podiatry school.
its always the same person who gets on under different names and writes retarded posts like the last 2. and i think we all know who that person is. the one who “entertains” for a living.
Podiatrists do a majority of the foot and ankle surgeries in the United States.
Many podiatrists work in orthopedic offices as the primary foot and ankle surgeon.
According to the APMA survey podiatrists are making 190K. (survey performed in 2006)
A great portion of a podiatrists clientele are referrals from a primary care physician.
Podiatry residencies are now (or will be within the next year) all 3 year residencies. One of the biggest confusion of podiatry qualifications is the amount of training received. Currently practicing pods may have anywhere from 1-4 years of residency. When the mandatory PMS36 (3 year) residency is established the profession will gain even more equality. As stated this is not far away. All 1 and 2 year residencies are currently being upgraded to 3 year or being dissolved.
Some podiatrists work 20 hour weeks. Others work 60 hour weeks. How much do you want to make and what is your situation? Many podiatrists own their own practice, although this is no longer the common norm for current podiatrists entering the workforce. Many podiatrists today are joining large groups.
Podiatry applicant pool is low. The APMA is taking steps to increase the applicant pool as to attract better students. The fact of the matter is most people do not want to 1) specialize in “feet” and 2) specialize early. Orthopedic foot and ankle residency slots go unfilled every year because of the lack of interest in the MD/DO world.
In many of these orthopod residencies a podiatrist is the attending.
Lastly, Podiatry does have some students get in with below average statistics. Some of these students “suck it up” and make it through the program. Many fail out. I’ve seen it first hand. I can assure you that podiatry school is not easy. I’m not here claiming that podiatry school is harder than MD/DO school but it is defiantly not a walk in the park.
Podiatrists definitely have their role in medicine. They are the best at what they do. Anyone who says differently is either-
A.) a student with an overgrown ego
B.) a competitor who is bitter about a podiatrist stealing their “turf”
never underesimat whay you learn in dpm skool it is goot tob blowing yourslef i dont be postin here but inzimabawe i am chief cockscukdr i say oeeld podiatry goot things 4 u tootlr ooo
bayside is a school that’s cool and ya know that it’s true.
stop comparing ‘degrees’ and start living, loving, and vacationing, shut the boob tube off, stop watching sports, and start living.
no one cares about ‘degree’, all hamster wheel nonsense.
it is amazing what 180K in non-bankruptable student loans does to someone’s intellect and ability to logically think. after eating prestige, gluteus kissing, and coffee buying, those 5% start to see the light.
Instead, they must work till they die. All aboard the hamster wheel, all aboard the highway, all aboard debt for life.
maybe ok for most, but the 5% club does things differently.
Rich dad/poor dad.
My debt was 200k… I paid it off in 5 years. Medical school and dental school are usually quite a bit more expensive. Some D.O. schools even where most graduates do some form of primary care, still pay 35-40k a year in tuition (not counting loans for living expense, which are easily 25k a year). I doubt that all of these graduates are in “debt for life”. every doctor has massive debt, unless someone pays for their education, or they are independently wealthy. It gets paid off, its just a matter of: do you want that BMW right out of residency, or are you willing to wait a few years?
Podiatric medical schools are NOT less than medical or dental schools. They are roughly the same ~40-50K yearly. The average debt for all docs is around 150-200K with accruing interest. Unless one has trust funds, parental help, those debt last around 10-25 years.
Most podiatry schools run 25 a year tuition, some med schools are cheaper for instate students but most are up in the 35 range a year, dental schools can be over 50 a year for out of state students and anywhere from 20 to 40 for instate, then you add living expense loans to these numbers… What’s my point? Medical programs of all types are too much freaking money!!!!!
in this health care debacle, no one in their right mind should even consider playing medicine. go into admin, 9-6P, M-F, 6 -7 figs, and the drones (docs) are in the trenches hamster wheeling.
two words, residency shortage. ask a pod student bout it
there has been “residency” shortages for many years look back to the late 1990s. Nothing changes in podiatry. that is the essense of podiatry.
Hot air spewing, grandiose proclamations, all hat, no cattle. fly you to the moon alice proclamations. no substance.
Podiatry is a viscous cycle, filled with mediocrity, neponomics, and anemic societies/club that purpost influence even though they are really irrelevant. However, as barnum and bailey have stated, there is a sucker/chump/sap/lacky/hamster wheeler born every minute.
I respect what Podiatrists do and believe they are needed, but the fact that an 18 on the MCAT can get a person in to every podiatry school that he/she applies to causes me to be unable to hold them in the same esteem as M.D.s and D.O.s who need scores in the 30s or mid- to high-20s to even be considered for admission, respectively. Test scores are not everything, but they definately still count for something.
the schools are desparate for anyone snd anything.
fog a mirror and you are in.
facts are facts, gres and dats are accepted—-that should tell you everthing.
its really annoying for most of us podiatry students who did at least mid 20s on the MCAT to listen to this garbage about how you can make an 18 and get in to any school… yes there are some underqualified students in podiatry schools, and some of the schools should be more selective, but people generalize the whole profession as nothing but dummies with terrible MCAT scores, that really is unfair and annoying. you want to know one big reason why pod MCAT scores are so low? because everybody knows you dont have to do that great to get in! i studied 4 days for it! how good do you expect to do with that study time?
All that matters is that you work hard in school to be successful, not some stupid test you take to get into school.
People are judging our education by entrance stats, when they should be judging it by the massive amount of material we cover in both podiatric and systemic medicine. good grief people! do you care if your doctor made a high mcat score, or if he worked his ass off in medical school?!
Hardly anybody ive talked to in pod school even studied hard for the MCAT, we dont have to score high on it and so nobody takes it that seriously… its like a vicious cycle. but who cares? i know i dont
that is quite embarrassing podiatric students
–do MD and DO students study for the MCAT?
It does attempt to test one’s ability to think critical, solve problems and read b/w lines, NOT memorize.
That is what is required as a physician. Now, if you are a technician, then perhaps, do not study hard for the MCAT, do not study hard for those PASS/FAIL 2 hour “exams” 205 only qsn. on podiatric “boards.” since you do not receive real scores like MD/DOs and then pods wonder why few take them seriously and not held in esteem by many.
What if the NBA, of MLB let anyone in if they could pay. I am sure no one would be watching games. You cannot build chicken salad, from chicken feces.
russ,
You are behind the times. Please stop spreading misinformation about 2 hour boards, etc.
are there 205 questions? After the 70% is achieved the exam give the PASS, so yes, podiatric student may be there >2 h, to get the 70% PASS? compare that w/ the USMLEs over two days with real scores to help access students. Why not podiatry–$$$$ and many students would flunk, and the schools need all the warm bodies/tuition they can muster.
are there PASS/FAIL not real scored reported?
Are they spread over two days of grueling case-based questions analogous to USMLEs?
If not, then one cannot purport physician/comparisons.
russ,
I am wondering why you rant and rave about “stop debating degrees, its cat and dog feces, its hamser wheel nonsense, go out and live life like me, i have traveled the world, im so great, turn off youtube, live life, dont go into medicine, debating degrees is pointless, america and podiatry sucks, etc”…. and then you make endless posts in which you yourself do nothing but compare degrees.
this is extremely hypocritical. in fact you seem to be the ultimate hypocrite. and kind of a weirdo
If you hate podiatry so much Russ, I suggest you avoid it, and stop associating with podiatry sites on the internet, do something more productive with your time… for someone who claims to “live life” as much as you claim, you sure do spend a lot of time on student doctor making negative and outdated claims (most of what you say was applicable in the mid 1980s, but im sure youve been out living life since then and havent been up to date on this hamster wheel nonsense).
I doubt that you will change your hypocritical ways, nor will you stop your arrogant and strange posts all about hamsters and feces, but if you have one ounce of humility then perhaps you can look in the mirror and realize that you are acting like that which you condemn – someone who wastes their time comparing degrees online when they should be living life.
Get off the hamster wheel russ! go live your life! just dont step in hamster sh*t!!
instead of personal attacks–why cannot you answer the questions above. after spending $149,563.32 in student loans for a “career” that pays <80K pre-tax adn requires 6 days a week–far cry from the no beeper, 40 hr wk PR PC nonsense that is purported by 3rd party companies that sell podiatry school to naive 20-30 somethings.
this is not 1980's, this was reality in 1990's and reality again 2010-2011 with residency shortages, no scope, low admission "standards", and in-fighting. Until he profession and the incompetence is flushed top to bottom, and the poltical clubs are cleaned top to bottom, the profession is up for critical review. it is what it is. water is wet.
thank you.
The difficulty of the part one boards has changed dramatically in the last 5-10 years, and will continue to do so. It will also begin testing genetics and other things and be more clinical problem based. My opinion is that making it more problem based will actually make the test much more fair for the students. The test now is extremely difficult because it tests the most random intricate details of physiology, micro, drug mechanisms, path morphologies, anatomy at different vertebral levels, etc. rather than a clinical problem based on info in which you can logically deduce the answer. Its either “you know it or you dont”. The way it is now, you basically need to remember every detail you ever learned about mechanisms of this and that, and it doesnt test your clinical reasoning as much as it does your overall ability to remember every single thing from your class notes.
Some of the things “Russ” says are legit concerns, some though are just matters of points of view… for example, i dont see the need for podiatrists to have boards as in depth and comprehensive as USMLE. The USMLE is designed to separate medical students out for different specialty residencies to evaluate. In podiatry, the part 1 boards are intended to serve as a minimal competency exam to conitinue podiatric medical education. Residencies in podiatry are interested in your GPA and overall clinical talent, research, etc. and want to know that you passed the minimal competency exam. We are all going into the same specialty… The real important boards to determine your worth in practice are those to become board certified in surgery and primary care podiatric medicine, ortho, etc.
That being said, I do see the opposing point of view, and I dont think it would be a bad thing for parity reasons, reimbursements, etc for us to have analogous boards to the USMLE, or even take the USMLE part 1 itself.
Students will probably perform BETTER on a clinical problem based boards such as USMLE or something analogous… Podiatry students prepare for their boards with the USMLE prep books, (there is no actualy podiatry board prep book, and the schools recommend they prepare with the USMLE study books). The schools also supply practice USMLE board questions and websites, etc. and many students i have spoken with feel that since they studied USMLE books and practice tests, they felt more comfortable with those difficult clinical problems.
Finally, I do feel that although Russ and others do have valuable constructive criticsim to offer the profession… in my opinion, people who ONLY have negative things to say, (and i mean ONLY) are not a good resource and overall compromise their own credibility.
lol, i mean come on, yeah podiatry has some improving to do, but theres definitely more good than bad. More people respect it than dont, including doctors. the society for vascular surgeons has officially supported podiatrists in gaining “across the board” physician status. we do in fact do most of the foot and ankle surgieries in this country. orthos and such wouldnt have pods in their groups if they were as idiotic as Russ and others have stated.
If you want to be the best, then be it. No matter what field you are in, if you are good, you will be respected.
if you are making less than 80 thousand a year pre-tax, then you
A. suck at your job
B. practice in Mexico
or C. Both
Or i guess you could only be working 20 hours a week
russ,
The exam is 205 questions but it is NOT 2 hours. It is 4 hours. And the USMLE is not 2 days anymore…it is 1 day/6 hours. Both exams test minimum competency. There is a Passing score on the USMLE and there is a push to make it pass/fail as well.
You are behind the times. Before you rant and rave about how inferior podiatry school education is…educate yourself on the CURRENT podiatry school curriculum, not what it was 5-10+ years ago.
We wish everyone the best in podiatrics.
Hopefully, they will increase their credentials and make the selection process very selective and very difficult to get in to the various podiatric schools–a few are amalgamated with medical schools. this should be throughout all the podiatric schools. The first two years MUST be identical, otherwise podiatry will be 2nd/3rd tier.
MCAT20′s -30′s must be required, if this is a medical/surgical speciality, then the selection process, and exams must be absolutely rigorous and consistent. Not animal antics, and but true professional students who are committed to medical and surgical treatment of (ankle) and foot pathology.
“MCAT20′s -30′s must be required, if this is a medical/surgical speciality, then the selection process, and exams must be absolutely rigorous and consistent. Not animal antics, and but true professional students who are committed to medical and surgical treatment of (ankle) and foot pathology.”
This is the current standard. There are few exceptions of those who slip through the cracks because they “know someone” just as anywhere else.
Not too long ago (10-15 years) DO schools had the same MCAT averages as Podiatry Schools. The more students know about Podiatry, more students will apply, and stats will increase.
With the standardization in education, 3yr surgical residency, I have no doubts that in 10 years Podiatry School will be a lot more competitive.
Excellent post Someone…
yeah right now there is much disparity in “how hard it is to get into podiatry school” and “how hard podiatry school is”…
Its hard for people to understand that just because admission standards are lower in a certain field doesnt necessarily mean that the program is easy. Occupational therapy school for example is every bit as rigorous and demanding as physical therapy, but many OT schools dont even fill their spots, simply because people dont know what the profession is… then you have dental hygiene schools that have 3 year waiting lists… If one year only 100 pre-MD students applied to medical school, its not like the schools would just take it easy on that group and make them learn any less
i know im preaching to the choir here
LovePodiatry,
I hear you.
I take anatomy side by side with MD students and that class is actually our “easy” class.
Just because it’s easy to get into podiatry school…doesn’t mean the classes are dumbed down…
Just did some research about requirements and here is what i found out. For those concerned with what the average MCAT score and GPA is to get into Podiatry school, here is what some of the schools averages are
NYCPM 23
SCHOLL 25-26
CSPM 23-24
Temple 24
Most of these schools have a average science gpa of 3.2-3.3 and non science 3.4
Those stats are very comparable to DO Schools.
I’m a DO student and we have many podiatry students in our basic science courses. Most of the podiatry students are out scoring the DO and Dental students. I am rather shocked at this because some of the podiatry students may have had sub 25 MCAT scores but they are doing well in the basic sciences. I guess MCAT is not everything.
AT LEAST THERE IS NO CARIBBEAN SCHOOL FOR PODIATRIST. AND PODIATRY ADMISSION DOES NOT ALLOW FOR “GRADE FORGIVENESS CRAP” LIKE ALL OF THE OSTEOPATHIC SCHOOLS. AND LETS NOT FORGET PODIATRIST’S CAN ACTUALLY PERFORM SURGERY, WHEREAS MOST OF THE OSTEOPATHIC STUDENTS END UP IN FAMILY PRACTICE, INTERNAL MEDICINE, CHECKING YOUR BLOOD PRESSURE.
MCATs are not everything, and a 6.5 h exam cannot predict success, however, it is impt. do study hard and your best. Podiatric medical students are the ankle and foot specialists. many students had MCAT>24 and some were from prestigious tier 1 undergrads, they will probably become the surgeons, while many will have a more general practice, similar to oral surgeons and dentists.
All graduating podiatrists are now trained in surgery, however not all will choose to do a lot of it after residency. but at least they will be able to if they choose.
ALso i would encourage people to not knock Osteopathic schools. There is no need. They offer excellent training just as podiatric medical school does, and D.O. students are occasionally put down by MD students without much merit, as happens with us from time to time.
Luckily these negaitve antics are done by a minority (albeit an annoying one)
Some podiatric specialists are trained in full scope ankle and foot surgery with in-patient, and tertiary hospital based, while others have more forefoot surgery and general podiatrics, as part of a more general practice.
I think three years good start with optional formal/accreditied fellowships, however, consistency is key, and just like oral surgeons (OMFS) and general dentistry there are huge differences in training similar to general podiatrists and full scope foot and ankle surgeons.
There also needs to be MUCH more research, basic, clinical RESEARCH funded by NIH or non-profit foundations (not DRUG company sponsored nonsense) and published in real journals. THis will help with rigorous studies to a broader audicience than throw away non-refereed journals.
As an aside, the CA Medical Board considers podiatrists as “allied health professional” along w/ opticians, midwifes, audiologists, this is wrong and needs to be quickly rectified.
S.B.,
85% (and growing) of graduating podiatrists go on to complete a 3 yr full foot and ankle surgery. A lot has changed in the past decade. Yes, a good number of the current practicing podiatrists only do general podiatry or some forefoot surgery but in the next 20-30 years that will change. In the past decade there has been a big push to standardize the training to full scope foot and ankle surgery for ALL graduates. Podiatry is very close to making that a reality.
Podiatric medicine is a speciality that has some of the finest foot and ankle specialists in the nation. their degree is well known, well established as THE foot and ankle specialists. all podiatric physicians spend 3 years in residency at academic teaching hospitals, are ACLS certified, crash teams, some even do fellowships and perform research and paper publish.
the field is booming and it will only get better.
future is very bright.
LOL “it will only get better”
You don’t have a clue. there is a REAL & SEVERE residency shortage happening and not like the ones MDs have. In podiatry, you don’t get a residency & it is the end of the road. No residency, no state license, no state license, no licenses to practice.. no job…no money..all while your loans accumulate. Wait 1 year and reapply– only this time with even more students and just a meager three or four new positions created. Tragic! This year, they are projecting some 45-50 students will not have a spot. Next year there are projecting even more graduates. Think they can come up with spots to bridge the gap in one year? It is easy to assume they are poor students, but I have seen it myself in years past where brilliant students have not matched. That is the whole reason there is a scramble. While Podiatry remains lucrative, it is by no means a secure profession—- just ask those who graduated from podiatry school the last time there was a shortage.
Wasn’t there a podiatric residency shortage in the 90′s, why didn’t the podiatry committees help with this dire situation. the schools were charging students more tuition to fund PPMR, POR, RPR spots that were very limiting professionally.
the way that i see it, is that as long as there is NO national scope, podiatry is lateral. and all the talk, cheerleading about 2015,2000, etc… is just more talk and rubbish to delay the inevitable. 3 years is fine as long as you can practice full scope foot and ankle surgery, what if after 3 year residency, you move to a state and met with tons of limitations and cannot practice what you were trained–that is why this profession is risky, many will do ok, some will do great, and others will change careers.
Jon,
Training has to come first then we can lobby for a scope of practice change. If 100% of podiatrists have the training to do full foot and ankle then it will be much easier to convince states that podiatrists should be able to expand scope.
Great, I can only see podiatric medicine getter much better, and the citizen realizing that podiatrists and podiatric surgeons are the leaders of foot and ankle medicine and surgery nationally without the multitudes of scopes, and turf battles, etc…
let’s keep up the great work, and make admissions exceedingly difficults, MCATS only, publishing in refereed journals, and earning grants to study and publish.
Get that DPM degree out there, and STOP hiding–DPM, DPM, DPM, DPM, that is the degree, DPM, DPM, DPM and be proud of it. physicians, DPM, DPM, DPM–physicians, 4+3+ optional. fformal accredited fellowships.
NO MORE HIDING WITH HEAD BETWEEN SHOULDERS or ACCEPTING CRUMBS, OR IGNORANT COMMENTS, DPM, DPM, DPM, physicians, ACLS, SICU, MICU, physicians.
“NYCPM 23
SCHOLL 25-26
CSPM 23-24
Temple 24
Most of these schools have a average science gpa of 3.2-3.3 and non science 3.4
Those stats are very comparable to DO Schools.”
Even a couple years ago this would have been accurate. I would just like to point out though that the number of students applying to DO schools has doubled in the past 5 years. The school I applied to with the lowest average GPA and MCAT is LECOM (considered by most DO candidates a decent school, but lower on their standards than most) with averages of 3.5 cGPA and a 26 MCAT. Those stats are still true for a few schools such as Pikeville though.
This just proves the point that just because the standards are lower does not mean your education is not as good. Most DO schools have not changed significantly in only 5 years so why are the standards going up so much? More people apply obviously. The same would happen with podiatry schools if the demand for it shot up.
With obama care, are POD jobs going to suffer? Also, In your opinions, what is the best POD school in the nation? I think Iowa. Thanks!
Wow…so much anger here. I’m a general pediatrician and am happy to say that I have no problem referring patient’s to podiatry. While I do agree that the current trend is for students with lower MCAT/GPA to migrate toward podiatric medicine, this does not at all equate to a bad provider. Med school…and I’m assuming podiatric school are what you make of them. I had several “smart” friends in medical school who I think are horrible providers.
there are many people in “medical” school MD/DO who have lower grades/mcats etc… selection was/is dependent on ethnicity, race, sex, or legacy selection.
some are not qualified to flush a toilet, have no bed-side mannerisms, whereas there are some podiatric medical students who are very well qualified, and are complete physicians/scientists who can blow circles around GPs/internists in ID, general med etc…
This article must be a joke, why would anyone choose foot fungus and nail clipping as a profession? Did anyone here see that Seinfeld episode about podiatrists; they aren’t real doctors!
Yeah because if it was on Seinfeld it must be true right?? Oh my gosh, the ignorance of some people amazes me
with obamacare, no in their right mind would consider “medicine”. many docs are leaving, or considering other options.
hey joe,
that seinfeld episode was about dentists, not podiatrists….
If you’re going to hurl insults, at least get them right…D***ass!
So I was googling podiatry shortage and came across this forum, and It’s been interesting to say the least. I don’t know if this Russ character is still participating in the discussions but I wish I knew what happened to you to make you miserable. Judging by the number of posts on here, he has spent countless hours stewing over podiatry and posting his “anti-podiatry” propoganda. Really Russ? How much time do you waste trying to help others “see the light”, and “free themselves” with your ridiculous comments. Maybe you will someday accomplish your goal of single handedly abolishing podiatry, and ridding the world of our evil profession, but in the mean time do yourself a favor and try to find something positive to put your energy into. Get a hobby. I mean really, your posts made me laugh out loud because for someone as free as yourself you spend a little too much time tearing other people down and participating in online chats. It’s honestly really wierd in my opinion. And who cares if someone make 80,000$ a year if they are HAPPY, right? I mean isn’t that what being free is all about? I don’t know what you do, but if it were going to make me as miserable as yourself, I wouldn’t do it for a million a year. Lighten up man, life is way, way too short.
Seinfeld also made fun of dermatologists…
student doctor dumb@zz,
there is an episode about podiatrists and how he doesn’t consider them really doctors. youtube is a great thing.
are people actually arguing about what seinfeld said about podiatrists??
the podiatry shortage occurred back in the 1990s and here it is again,
we spent so much and hearing the apma utter a bunch of “we;re working on its” is not the answer. they took the money, they had glossy brochures, DVDs, etc… If the profession cannot guarantee quality 3 year residencies for all, then the profession should accept fewer students of higher caliber instead of grabbing up as many students as they can because the pod schools are predominately tuition driven and act independently of what is best for the profession and students.
just like dentistry whereby most dent students become general dentists, the majority of pods should only do general podiatry, the few then can go on to become foot and ankle surgeons via rigorous brutally difficult training similar to OMFS residents.
I agree with most of what you said… the schools do need to do that…
I disagree that most podiatrists should do general podiatry… right now all graduates (except the 5 percent without a residency) get complete foot and ankle surgical training. this is healthy and good for the profession. as a profession we are better trained than ever and this is huge.
the residency shortage should improve, lets hope that it does
Podiatrists arent real doctors. Why be a lifelong poser and sitcom joke?
cringed when i saw that, the sienfeld show,
we think the negative comments are because of the low standards to obtain a position in podiatric school. dats, gres, when it should only be MCATS. students from lower tier colleges, and frat/sonority types-does not help the image of podiatrics. also, the lack of publishing, research, and academic acumen as professors at allopathic med school is lacking and needs to be vastly improved.
podiatric medicine has been improving however, the pod orgs are much political/neponomics etc.., and endless meetings and back-slap dinners does not serve its’ students well.
We had a podiatrist come lecture us the other day at my school, a senior partner in an ortho group… is he a poser and a faker? i know his ortho parnters and patients dont consider him so (even though some troll internet jerk named Joe might).
What is a “real doctor?” if your licensed to medically and treat something within your scope, and your patients come to you for that treatment, are you not a “real doctor” in that area? Do people bitch at their dentist when they have a toothache because he isn’t a “real doctor”? Do you even need to be a “real doctor” to do what you are trained to do? Does it even matter to anyone outside these forums?
The answers to these questions should be obvious, unfortunately there are a lot of ignorant, rude and close-minded people out there who just want to “win” an argument (Joe).
Does a dentist need to be a “real doctor” (by your standards) to treat your mouth? Does your optometrist need to be a “real doctor” to prescribe your vision correction?
Joe, two suggestions:
1. Get a life (a “real life”, not just bashing people on the internet)
2. Dont become a “real doctor” (because you come across as an as*hole and your patients probably wont like you)
by the way i was referring to the annoying joe that posted the link… not the one several posts above that mentioned iowa
joe,
Seinfeld also made fun of dermatologists. “Pimple popper, MD”
A sitcom show…really…that is what you brought up…
Just stopped by to see what was new. Decades of the same old routine. I’ve been running low on enthusiastic wise-cracking. Can we get a little bit of oomph here?
Real doctor? That’s a dopey semantic because when it comes down to it, nobody who sees a podiatrist or dentist really cares. What with the 25% Medicare cuts, mandated EMRs, and all the other hurdles ahead, there’s more poignant issues needing attention. I’d guess that the decreased matriculation in pod schools and unpaid student loans would pretty much spell things out. I still do not understand why the DPM schools do not open a track of training to the students for NP or PA (even LPN) degrees so that the scope of practice isssues could diminish to a point. A bandaid of sorts. Doubt if it’ll happen.
The point where a DPM could earn a living after graduation is difficult to locate, hence the high atrition.
I think I’ve covered this material a few decades ago, but; nobody really cares enough to do anything about it. The MD degree is fine, one of the most famous DPMs has one but no license. It is an academic degree and It might help open doors. But that too has been chatted about, beaten down and crushed.
The older I get the more exhausting it is to have to explain what D P M stands for.
Well, so much for my post. Its not so much what others think of you as it is what you think of yourself.
Your friendly neighborhood Caddypod as ever was.
Caddypod, pod school matriculation is at an all time high. Number of pod schools is at an all time high. Numbers of pod schools integrated with medical school is an an all time high. Standards of admission are at an all time high. Average salaries of podiatrists are at an all time high. Residency training is standardized, and number of years required, and also optional fellowships are at an all time high. Pod affiliations (with ortho, vascular, endocrine) are also better than ever, including joint publications. Pod school curriculums are also better than ever. Average starting salaries for pods is also high.
Yet you ignore all of this.
We dont need an MD degree. We can do our job exceptionally well with a DPM. In fact we can do it better. Pods can do allopathic fellowships if so desired.
Podiatry is worthless in your eyes, and clearly it is an obsolete field in your opinion. This is clear due to your constant negativity. This combined with your inaccurate statements cause you to lose credibility in my eyes, despite your apparent longevity in the profession.
We have real issues in the profession, but you waste time citing the ones you do.
I do agree with your assessment of “real doctor” semantics though.
Dear Respctful,
You are incorrect on several levels.
Do some research: Interview school administrators, instructors and students.
I am not negative simply informative. Your subjective aphorisms suggest that you know anything about me and/or my work. Your assumptions are at best shoddy and overpersonalized.
If I can make podiatry a more cohesive, integral part of our healthcare system by working OUTSIDE of the ordinary channels, all podiatrists will benefit.
Reality is what happens when you stop believing in it-
Phillip K Dick, author
If my somewhat whacky sense of humor, an instrument I’ve used for years offends, so be it. Nonetheless, change will only come about when people in the same field work together toward a goal – in podiatry there are many goals for many people not all of which are on the same track.
Try to be mindful of the years of exclusionary tactics by the mainstream and lack of support from the organizations including but not limited to the media, big pharma, continuing education, research, banking (try getting financing to open a podiatry practice) and a host of other entities. These are not imagined naysaying ramblings of some disgruntled individual, rather a snapshot at the academic apartheid waged against DPMs.
I will continue to bring about positive change by using the tools in my chest. There is hope, but; recognizing and addressing the shortcomings is tantamount to correcting and advancing.
Anyone who said that life is fair has been seriously misinformed.
Paraphrasing John F Kennedy.
Lets level the playing field
Respectfully,
Caddypod as ever was
So be it
a
Caddypod as ever was makes some good points. I would like to see that sort of dedication in my corner. Sign me up. I am just concerned about going against the grain. I have seen the vindictiveness of podiatrists and have spent too many years building up my practice.
There is a financial TV show that had an elderly father calling in regarding his grown son who as a podiatrist with ~200K student loan debt, and needed to move back home. THe TV show host was aghassed that a doctor was moving back home with his father.
This is the second time a podiatrist has been featured/mentioned on this show.
Also, regarding Anon’s comment–yes pods can be vindictive, jealous, and catty. Anyone who speaks or wants to truly legitimize the profession is seen as a rabble rouser or going against the status sorry quo.
The changes that we have seen are minimal, and irrelevant as the medical and orthopaedic societies control everything. Podiatry is not even on their radar. The profession is too small, does not have much political clout, and not enough funds to lobby for real change.
Pod with over 20 years of practice experience, former residency director, and former pod political club member.
the only problem i have about this article is: “The biggest difference is the degree earned.”
that’s like saying the biggest difference between DDS/DMD and MD/DO is the degree earned.
i’m fine with DPM are doctors/great profession/pretigious. but to say they’re essentially the same thing (which the article is trying to say by the above sentence) as DO/MD is pushing it.
No. Podiatry school is not medical school. The basic sciences in some institutions which are affiliated with medical schools (MD/DO)…maybe. The measure of that would be the USMLE. Free standing podiatry schools and the National Board of Podiatry Examiners exist in a realm only some higher podiatric authority can discern. The general public and ACGME does not care and excludes podiatry from being a specialty. Reality by definition of the author Phillip K. Dick is as follows:
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.”
This quote is particular poigniant in this thread as it directly applies to the posts that suspect any criticism is negativity and naysaying. There are readily available facts that can be confirmed with a few phone calls and documents of which some are available on line. Yes, there are secrets and obfuscations perpetuated by the politic of a profession which need to be maintained. Look beyond the propaganda.
Every third year medical student has core clerkships: Internal Medicine, OB-GYN, Surgery, Peds and Psychiatry with little variation among medical schools globally.
Fourth year students have electives in Rads, Cardio, Urology and just about every medical specialty. There are no electives in Podiatry for fourth year medical students.
The difference in degree is based on the fact that podiatry school is different as are the options available for the graduate podiatrist. DPM does not afford one the ability to make career changes in the medical field to any broad degree. There are some exceptions, but largely they are minimal. There are some exceptional podiatrists with excellent `podiatric’ credentials that do not translate into the mainstream.
These are verifiable facts. Review the curriculae of the podiatry, dental, medical and osteopathic programs. It is information readily available online. Try and locate the number of podiatrists who have left clinical practice and leveraged their DPM degree into some other field. You have more fingers than that.
Suggestions to enhance podiatry: Affiliate with academic teaching center, add the core clerkships, enable podiatry students the ability to take electives in non-foot related areas. Assure that the graduates are knowledgable in general medicine and you will ultimately have a well rounded physician specializing in the foot.
The bell has been rung and three year residencies and surgery is trending podiatry into oblivion. Internal modifications will make for a desirable career with options.
Life is filled with unknowns. Knowing that you spent four years to earn a degree, another few for training and debt, an opportunity to make a living outside of podiatric surgery isn’t much to ask.
I willl continue to be repetitive for as long as it takes for concepts to be integrated and change to occur.
I spent the time and money and years along with the debt.
I did go to medical school after podiatry school. That gave me perspective. I am dedicated to podiatry and my goal is to make it better. You might not care for my methods, but make no mistake, podiatry can be more than the sum of its parts.
I do not flash an MD degree to aggrandize and diminish podiatric medicine. I would like to integrate what I’ve learned and experienced into a profession surrounded by misinformation and exclusion.
most pods are dentists of the foot.
many have little general med knowledge and focus on paradigms of very limited scope and not medically based. how does b-thal, and von willebrands disease, and leuko poor transfusions, this is a sample of medicine, they cannot manage their own patiwnts without a permission slip/co signer.
and, if you touch a wart/mole on the ankle in ny, you are sued.
to quote an outspoken critic of podiatry, most do not know, what they do not know. there needs to be UNLIMITED scope for podiatry, otherwise, this profession is and will be a 3rd class dumping ground. chiros get whole body, np/pa , imgs, rns, usmles reqd, consustent acgme residences, in training exams, one board certification, with optional fellowships,
most think they know diabetes (few publish), yet cannot manage it. gout, many are afraid to prescripe allopurinol.?! also, contrary to the religious biomechanic zealots,
rearfoot varus and over pronation are not medical diseases. selling foot creams, shoes, arch supports, shoe stores is embarassing, this is not podiatric management, but pod embarassment.
3yrs is not the panacea, after 3yrs, then what, the mds now will. magically grant physician status?
what about those pods that only got 1 or 2 years of “training”, will there be a weekend catch up program?
the pod orgs need to be relentlessly persuing universal scope. otherwise,
Pod orgs. are largely populated by podiatrists who realize that their source of power and control is within podiatry. These are the folks heavily vested in their own agenda, which is fine, for them but does not transcend the boundaries established by state scope of practice laws, rules and regulations. To be trounced on by these marginal tyrants can be costly and time consuming. Keep in mind that the political podiatrist is a vicious sort clammering his/her way to some higher podiatric realm recognized solely by other podiatrists of similar ilk. Indeed these are the first line of podiatrists to remind you that treating a wart above some anatomic level is a disciplinary issue. The power to adjudicate and level punishment in the name of podiatric justice is an abusive, arbitrary and capricious task reserved for those particularly spineless primates. It is far simpler to bully other podiatrists than take a stand for podiatry in the general mainstream. This disconnect is one of several root causes for podiatric stagnation.
In reflecting upon these things, I have become mindful of the fact that many podiatrists in positions of authority, make up for an absence of wisdom
with power. The power is over podiatrists. Not particularly a grand fiefdom but nonetheless a network of pettiness and egregious men and women who choose to seek and destroy the already beaten and downtrodden. Not to disabuse any notion that there are many cases of wrongdoing by podiatrists – there’s plenty. But the larger enforcement agents often round up the usual suspects before they reach the state board level.
Suffering from terminal forefoot varus and hyperpronation is not a real disease.
A paradigm shift is in order and young pods should insist on an education commensurate with the state of the art medical schools. Otherwise, why bother.
Stand up and be counted, not by the Lilliputians but by men and women working to be the best at what they do, equipped with the ability to understand complex systems and respond appropriately. Demand that quality and depth, breadth and exposure to all facets of medicine while you are in podiatry school. Any thing short of the best money can buy is simply not enough to make it in this competitive marketplace. You owe it to yourself to excel not be duped into submission by the small numbers of podiatric power brokers. Remember podiatry will remain to mainstream medicine as the World Wrestling Foundation is to the NFL. You only go around once. Get as much out of it as you can!
Please, refrain from personal insinuation, innuendo and calumny. You don’t know anything about me other than my perpetual posts. Toss out some ideas along with the jokes and take a break from calling people names and speculating – If enough podiatrists chip away at the status quo change will come about.
until universal scope, unlimited licensure occur, pods will be foot dentists. treat local manifestations and temporaey conditions, then, refer to their doctor. or try podiatric profit centres selling foot creams or arch supports— while espousing physician status. there is a huge difference in pod v. med school. you do not know, what you do not know. ground reactive forces or valgus are medical diseases. can you sign off on an ekg?, can you intubate, abgs?, picc lines?, pushing b blockers? allopurinol for gout? or, will many pods take the approach of clipping, selling arch supports, creams, or performing elective ff sx. if we want parity—-we must earn it. period.
dissolve the cpme, aacpms, replace with md orgs. the “essence” of podiatry is over. we must move forward with universal, unlimited scope, or be considered foot dentists.
what are many pods afraid of? instead of listening to im lectures, learn at hospitals 3 or 4th year as a sub-i.
instead of shortcuts, and backdoors, take the usmles, take acgme residences, then sit for asms bc right after residency with in training acgme exams. what are the podiatric schools afraid of, loss revenue, that many students/faculty/admin are low caliber, incompetent, apathetic?
Its interesting, I became interested in podiatric medicine due to 2 of our family doctors praising it when I was in college, and suggesting to me that podiatry or dentistry were the way to go. One of these internists was actually attempting to complete a podiatry residency because he was tired of the hours he was working in internal medicine and all the crap he had to deal with.
Both of these docs admired the field and said only good things about it. They each refer patients to it a lot. The pods in my hometown do all the foot surgery, they dont work for orthos but its just understood that thats how it is there. i think the orthos do ankles for the most part there.
Im currently a 3rd year student. I was surprised that probably 90 percent of our curriculum the first 2 years was devoted to general medicine basic sciences and pharm, with only a couple of small credit pod specific classes. All of our medicine is taught by MD’s in all specialties from a local very prestigious hospital system. My third year now, our heaviest credits are general medicine, neurology, dermatology. We are now getting more in to traumatology and podiatric surgery which is nice as it is more applicable, and we can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Our 3rd and 4th year rotations are about half podiatry related and half general medicine related. We have ER, internal medicine, vascular, radiology, etc. in addition to our podiatry clinics and hospital.
One thing ive found very interesting is that the podiatrists who teach us podiatric medicine classes and stuff dont really refer to us as medical students or in medical school or as physicians… but the MD’s on faculty frequently do this. I have heard a couple flat out say “you guys are physicians of the foot and ankle. you need to know this.” or “when you guys get out of medical school and blah blah blah”…
The only reason I point this out is to show any who might be reading this thread that it is quite common for physicans in the real world to respect podiatrists as much as anyone else. In fact I would say that it is more common than not, especially if they understand our training. The hype and “bad blood” we hear so much about in podiatry is typically limited to foot and ankle orthopods (most orthopods are so busy making butt loads of money doing shoulders and hips they dont give a crap about foot surgery).
I think anyone considering podiatry should shadow several podiatrists, and also some primary care doctors, and find out from each of them about if it is worth it or not. Do not base the decision on this forum. The only people who comment on something like this are those with very strong positive or negative feelings. The overwhelming majority of neutral or content people dont waste time on a forum like this.
While some of the posters above me might claim that im just a naiive 3rd year student and dont know anything about the real challenges in the profession, i would point out to them that i understand the current podiatric educational curriculum and education far better than they do. It is NOT the same as it was even 5 years ago. We do get a very well-rounded education. The boards are extremely difficult, and I would bet my life that we would perform better on the USMLE boards (which i think we should take instead, at least part 1).
Podiatry education is what you make of it. If you want to be one of those guys who graduates and only knows the foot, then you can certainly do that. however, if you are a good student and ambitious, then review your medicine notes frequently, try to maintain a good understanding of all the systems just as you did on exam date, and you can do that also. I make it my mission to understand each condition and medication I ever see on a patients chart.
Whether a podiatrist wants to manage gout or not isnt really that important. Many do, and many don’t. In fact, many internal medicine docs do not choose to manage it, but refer to rheumatology. Some podiatrists manage a lot of systemic stuff, others wont ever prescribe trental, colchicine, etc. I agree that we should be ABLE and QUALIFIED to, which I believe we are, as long as we dont choose to forget what we learn in school. People manage what they wanna manage, according to their interests, and I think this is fine. That concept is not unique to our specialty.
Medical students also do not complete rotations in dentistry, yet dentistry is vital to our health care system. ditto with physical therapy, optometry, etc.
Podiatrists are not dentists of the foot. Dentists do not receive training in listening to heart or lungs, or systemic physical diagnosis. They dont need to. Its not relevant to them being dentists. More power to them. I respect their knowledge.
You can be as good or as crappy as you want to be in this field.
I agree that we should get the absolute most out of our education. I will agree with some above that many podiatrists and students should keep up with the systemic stuff better, if for no other reason than to show any doubters in the medical community that we are competent above the knee. I personally really enjoy all the systems, but am relieved not to have to treat them.
We appreciate your comments and dedication:
Physicians do not have 50 different scopes of practice nor do they infighting in their political organizations that purport the “physician” status. PA and CA they are providers, in NY allied health, NY for example, if you touch anything in the ankle this constitutes professional misconduct (lawsuit).
The roadblocks for the most part are NOT orthos, they are other pods.
Please allow me to state that again, the “enemies” are not orthos, the road blocks are mostly other pods. who are lazy, incompetent, or enjoy being foot dentists and do not want to be physicians, and fight for USMLES parts 1 AND 2. then ACGME training, followed by ABMS exams. Otherwise, podiatry is a step above a NP/PA (without surgery, they are at about the same level, although–NPs/PA/CHiros scope is full body and they can prescribe HTN meds, only in podiatry is a leg is considered broad scope?!).
The term “physician” as used by podiatrists is misleading and illegal in some states; the word “podiatric” MUST be used, and the DPM status must be used/advertized on literature, otherwise this is misrepresentation and grounds for professional misconduct.
It is great that you get rotations in vasc sx, IM, and radiology that is similar (is it the same as MD/DO students, full time/taking call as a student/presenting patients/writing orders that are co-signed by the intern, not racing back to afternoon lectures at the podiatry school?) Putting in foleys, giuacs, pelvic exams–we want physician status–we must earn through parity. Universal scope and unlimited licensure.
There is a huge difference in reading an ekg from a textbook versus performing it in the ED and understanding its implications, and signing off it. This is what physicians do and what podiatrists should be doing. However, many enjoy short cuts, laziness,incompetence, or enjoy selling inserts, doing bunions, or selling self made foot creams which is in the purview of a foot dentist.
Podiatrists should all be treating gout in same manner, why would a “physician” of the foot and ankle be referring to others for gout? This fractionated, and inconsistent training and /or comfort level is why pod are dentists of the foot, and where MDs/DOs have legimate issues with DPM training. Are ER docs afraid to intubate, or are obs afraid to deliver a baby and refer to someelse. Gout is a 1MTPJ thing, why on g-d’s green earth, would a “physician” of the foot and ankle being referring it someone else unless they are incompetent, or not trained properly?
3 years of residency training (variability/inconsistency of training within different programs is real, and still no in-training exams) is a good start, want to make sure that ALL pods that received only 1-2 years of training get standardized rigorous weekend programs to bring them up to the 3 year res. status.
however, there are not enough sx cases to go around. also, what is the point of being “fully” trained if one cannot do what they were trained to do. there still is no universal scope and an unlimited license is required to be a physician. Otherwise, one is a foot dentist.–does not matter if you did 3 years at mayo or 10 years at stanford as the foot fellow, the DPM degree is the hinderance. It is time for USMLEs, ACGMEs, and ABMS to bring up our students/practitioners at the level they deserve. Otherwise we are foot dentists and stanation results, What is the old guard afraid of?
Addendum, erratum, Obviously, Chiros cannot prescribe HTN meds, and dentists are not inconsistent trng , meant as being very limited and cannot do what a physician/OMFS does.
Side note: Checked the 4th sch for my alma mater today, and they are still teaching students to be foot dentists. Strapping/taping seminars, month long clipping clerkship, putting on casts seminars, and orthotics when OTC v. custom has been shown time and again there is NO difference. This is not medicine. The MD/DO students are IN hospitals doing, learning, treating, evaluating, what are we doing?
we applaud your training studentpod, there is still too much variability amongst schools as presented herein with your example and a review of the website of the alma mater.
You’re damn right I’m disgruntled, dissatisfied and ticked off at the podiatry propaganda and silly promises that were made to me all those years ago. I borrowed a lot of money over twenty years ago to go to what was promised to me by the financial aid officer (who is now a dean with a doctorate) the admissions committee and just about anyone in authority at the podiatry school that I would have a career in podiatry and could make a living. I was promised. There were not enough residencies and I did not get one. I spent years trying to find work and there was nothing and I mean nothing available. There were no Government jobs. Podiatry took years from my life and I STILL have student loans to pay back. I was lied to and wronged by podiatry. Reading these posts infuriates me. Twenty years + and it is the same song and dance about the wonders of podiatry. I am surprised the podiatry schools have not been sued for false promises and a life time of indebtedness. I am an average person who was an average student with no podiatry relatives with practices I could sink into. I had a four year degree and the promise of my school that there would always be work for podiatrists. Shame on you for the lies and lives you podiatry pushers have done. How many more false promises will you make. I am a naysayer and will spend the rest of my life with the rotten taste of liars who stole much of my youth. I believed until I had to move in with my parents and beg to trim toenails. The profession if you want to call it that is evil and after reading these posts and those on podiatry bytes I feel empowered to find some way to recoup my losses over all these years. There is nothing any of you can say to convince me that I am lazy, untalented, stupid or less than suited for the job. It is all bull. I have talked with many lawyers over the years and put lawsuits on a back burner. Reading these threads makes me burn up. I might be a looser in podiatry but I did OK in another career. I still have loans outstanding for podiatric nonsense which I took out based on lies. Nothing has changed and nothing will. All the well wishing and back patting of all the silly boards for one stupid profession if you can call it that was a ripoff. The day of reckoning for the podiatry honchos is coming and I hope to be around to see them answer to whatever authority there is for all the lies and misrepresentations. The only foot I own is mine. F&^% You Podiatry!
yep, lies and misrepresentations are the norm.
Pissed-
It sounds to me like you assumed that once you signed your name on that piece of paper saying you were going to attend podiatry school you expected to be handed a nice big check with it. News flash: it doesn’t matter if you graduate from Harvard Law School, Johns Hopkins Medical School, or one of the podiatry schools, IF YOU AREN’T GOOD AT WHAT YOU DO YOU WON’T MAKE MONEY DOING IT. That’s the way it works with every profession. If you put in the hard work during your schooling, you’ll receive a spot in a residency (there are about to be a potential 155 more residency spots opening- just announced today), and if you work hard in that residency you’ll do well in practice. I get tired of reading about the small percentage of DPMs that could not cut it and come onto these internet sites whining about how “podiatry lied to them”. Look at any website (reputable website – not one that some disgruntled person like you made) and you’ll see the projected increase in demand for more podiatrists. Podiatry as a profession has tremendous upside for interested students and is only going to continue growing just as it has over the past few decades.
Hey Pod you are full of doo doo. There are no jobs. To suggest that I am not good at what I do and that there are jobs for podiatrists who work hard in school and get residencies is more horse pucky. So what if there are 155 more residencies on the way. I already left the dumb ass so called profession. There is not a small percent of of DPMs who did not or can not cut it. You are a liar and the only upside to podiatry is that if you have a pea size ego you can call yourself doctor. Demand for podiatry is bull. No place in the promised public health sector should have been a real tip off.
Over time I have met with many many DPMs who hate it more than a plague.
There is nothing other professions can do that podiatrists do. Ther leaders are like any other politician or conservative talk show host. Pull yourself up from your bootstraps. Ha.
Podiatry is a hoax and was and is sold to unwitting young people.
You lie. You lie you lie and want money to line the pockets of PACs.
Damn right I am disgruntled and so are plenty of other podiatry graduates who you just dismiss. Who the hell are YOU to speak for podiatry. You Mister Doctor who can not even treat a whole person but is a genius of the foot,
I am glad I finally landed a job outside of healthcare. Notes like the one you posted that are filled with LIES LIES and more LIES. Podiatry will probably not last much longer as you fight among you.
I burned my DPM diploma and if you do not like my attitude and life long mission to support the real surgeons of the foot the orhthopdic surgeons tough.
I want my tuition money back. The money I spent to buy a crappy education that its leaders said was a sure thing to a life long career. I am a naysayer with a big mouth a big audience. I have been researching lawyers and class action as well as individual disgruntled cheated people who were mislead into podiatry land. I volunteer my time to political campaigns that want to put podiatry in its rightful place. You are a bunch of liars.
I looked at ANY reputable websites and do not see a demand for DPMs. Nurses yes. Doctors of the MD or DO variety yes. You will not prove anything by spreading false information. If you are so tired of naysayers like me carry on with your so-called career. There is not anything you can write that will change the lies that your profession spreads just to make money for a bunch of invisible boards and so-called residencies. You are full of it.
I moved out of my parents basement years ago and married well. We have three children non of them will EVER see a podiatrist. If my parents or my husbands parents need their feet looked at there is no way they will see a phony baloney podiatrist.
So take your BS and ram it up your bum. I do not know how people who spread these things sleep at night. You spreaders of lies about podiatry are horrible. Shame on you.
Pissed-
So let me get this straight. You claim to have received a high school diploma, a bachelors degree, and a doctorate, and have been out of school for the past “twenty years +”. That would put you in the ballpark of at least 50 years old and this is the way you talk and the maturity level you display? Using adjectives such as “doo doo” and crying like a little child? If any of this story is actually true I can say I am not surprised at all you didn’t get a residency and I can promise you that it doesn’t matter what medical field you tried to go into, it wouldn’t have worked out. Realistically you are obviously just a troll that has no affiliation with podiatry and never has. I would hope that any prospective podiatry students reading this would be wise enough to do their own research on the profession and not make any type of decision off of someone who is hiding behind of computer screen spouting off garbage with zero facts to back them up. I have never seen or heard any type of rumors whatsoever that there is no work in podiatry. There is a small shortage of residency spots available currently, but that is being addressed as we speak. If you finish your residency training there will certainly be places to practice as long as you are not trying to set up a practice in some already super saturated area (this is like any profession again though – if you’re a neuro surgeon trying to set up practice in a small city with 20 other neuro surgeons around you, business is going to struggle – that’s business 101). All you have to do is type “foot doctor” into Google (which is what a lot patients will do) and look what pops up. The salary websites are all over the map with everything that they post, but I personally do not know a DPM who isn’t making above six figures out of residency and I know quite a few making over 200,000 per year. You don’t make that kind of money with no jobs available. Again, look it up and do your own research. Everything I have said can be verified by reputable websites, nothing this troll has said can be. Good luck to everyone out there and hopefully this troll gets a life.
Pod,
Thank you for your comments. Its nice to see people like Pissed get put in their places. “no jobs, no money…” all that talk is absolute garbage. And this is according to GOVERNMENT websites, NOT propaganda.
I cant stand guys like Pissed. By reading their post, you can easily see why they didn’t succeed
Jim, I wanted to comment on some of your statements…
“Physicians do not have 50 different scopes of practice nor do they infighting in their political organizations that purport the “physician” status. PA and CA they are providers, in NY allied health, NY for example, if you touch anything in the ankle this constitutes professional misconduct (lawsuit).”
Podiatrists do not have 50 different scopes of practice either. Please do not exaggerate just to make a point. You site PA, CA, and NY. while yes this is true, it is NOT the norm, and there are scopes on the other end of the spectrum. Look at georgia where pods do knee scopes, in alaska they do KNEE and FEMUR SURGERY.
“The roadblocks for the most part are NOT orthos, they are other pods.”
This is largely true unfortunately. Or fortunately. However you want to look at it. Orthos certainly have more power than other pods.
“There is a huge difference in reading an ekg from a textbook versus performing it in the ED and understanding its implications, and signing off it. This is what physicians do and what podiatrists should be doing.”
True, but this is what ED physcians and IM physicians are doing. It is important for pods to be at the level of an internist in reading EKG’s. However, you dont see orthos reading ekg’s. I feel that students are well trained in reading EKG’s these days. I dont think that you realize this.
“Podiatrists should all be treating gout in same manner, why would a “physician” of the foot and ankle be referring to others for gout?”
This is ABSOLUTELY true. Couldn’t agree more.
“Chiros cannot prescribe HTN meds, and dentists are not inconsistent trng , meant as being very limited and cannot do what a physician/OMFS does.”
I am glad that you fixed the blatantly false statement with this comment. By the way OMFS are technically not physicians, unless they obtain an MD degree through more schooling. (does anyone care who sees one? I doubt it)
“however, there are not enough sx cases to go around”
This is absolutely not true. If you are well trained, and dont live in a city with 100 foot surgeons, this is not true.
At one point I had doubts about podiatry school after enrolling. I was super excited after shadowing pods and talking to other MD’s about the field. I can honestly say that the only time i have ever doubted the profession was for a brief time when I first got on student doctor! Holy crap, if you only went by these forums, you would think pods are the scum of the earth. I never understand why people who want change so badly spend so much time writing on THIS forum. Go do something productive. Nobody reads this. All you may accopmlish is swaying some college student into not being interested in the field when they in reality may have loved it. Im so glad i got into school BEFORE i encountered this website…. otherwise id be trying to get into MD school, praying to all things holy that i wouldnt have to do PRIMARY CARE!!
Dear Pissed,
There are some crumdgeonly sorts who rage out. Your post(s) are not humorous or in any way enlightening. Have you considered taking up knitting, hang-gliding or bunjee jumping? Perhaps heavy drinking and ice-skating might suffice as a salve for your youthful psychic wounds. Nonetheless, podiatry does have its shortcomings and you can exclude yourself from some of my proposals and those of others to integrate podiatry with forward thinking solutions sans the politic of podiatry.
This verily has become a sounding board for podiatrists/podiatry students and miscreants as myself to complain. In my case as well as some of the othe posts there are suggestions which can, with some dedication, letter writing, telephony and face-to-face contact be implemented. Nobody said it would be a simple task, but; it is doable.
Implementation of the USMLE part I is a great start. The folks who do not want to get on board with this might be given a choice. Eithe take the boards part I or don’t proceed to year 3. It is a difficult yet unsurmountable endeavor which, from what I’ve gleaned been instituted at Western University (?)
The next step would be the implementation of the core clerkships mentioned previously in: General Surgery, OB-Gyn, Internal Medicine, Peds and Psychiatry. This would make podiatry/podiatric medical students – medical students. I’m not talking about cursory clerkships, but; bonafide 24 hour on 12 hour off rotations at teaching hospitals. Actually doing the scut work, starting IVs, blood gasses, EKGs and complete history and physical examinations with presentation of cases at morning rounds. The critical third year of medical school can be added to the podiatric curriculum. It just takes tenacity and a demand for an education. Keep in mind that the third year of med school puts you right into the thick of things, the 3rd year contributes to the facility and learns the ropes of things. It is an integral part of any medical student to follow a very ill patient from admisssion to outcome (often a terminal patient). This is medical school and could/should be integrated into the podiatry schools if we would like to advance the parity paradigm. This can be done. I have consulted with several forward thinkers who agree – it isn’t the general medical community opposing this increase in breadth and depth, it’s the old gaurd of podiatry whose status quo has reached a level of dissatisfaction among many graduates. Regardless of the degree granted the knowledge obtained from what was at the time grueling, life changing responsibilities and strict adherence to elements of humanity will, I believe make for a well rounded podiatrist/podiatric physician/whatever you want to call it, but essentially a person who has been at the front lines of healthcare, not glossed over it and got to scrub in on a few procedures. Medical school is a part of your life dedicated to those hours on and those hours off and the in-service exams and the M & M sessions, evening rounds, ER call. Fully embracing the whole body makes for a greater appreciation of foot and ankle pathology. We simply cannot proceed along the lines of the past and expect different outcomes.
I am not going to revisit the trite: “I want a nine to five job,” schtick, or “I don’t want to take call.” Hey the cat left the bag when podiatrists demanded parity. I say we will get what we give. As I mentioned I did the MD school gig in the early 80s and a few years living eating and breathing in a hospital. I found out the old fashioned way that it’s doable. Nowdays even moreso.
I am not a naysayer or negative on podiatry – I got your attention by pointing out correctable flaws – now we have the capacity – with better educated new arrivals to DPM school and dedicated students and residents to push hard for the education needed. There is no substitute for general medical education. For folks who’ve been in practice for a few years I fail to fathom the inability of some states not allowing DPMs to fulfill their Continuing education credit requirements with AMA AOA approved courses. I was shocked to find out that factoid years ago – but it finally changed when some forward thinkers realized that the foot IS part of the body.
Once you’ve walked the ….jeez I hate cliche’s…but you know what I mean. As far as grandfathering, just offer up some good CME that is broad and general along with the newer ways to fillet the foot.
Overall once you stop concerning yourself with prestige issues, the obvious fiduciary ones and the politics – the learning begins.
Yes indeed podiatry is headed for some changes and by integrating what physicians MD DO MB BS do globally into a podiatric curriculum it will be little time indeed when commments as rotten as some I’ve read become obsolete. (I have been a little cantankerous at times but it got some to take stock I hope)
Fraternally,
Caddypod as ever was
Write your suggestions and send them to whoever will read them at the schools at the boards at the leaders of podiatry. The school deans and student affairs experts. Change is coming and the more we push for the future of podiatry the better we all are. Not imitative, but unique and educated.
Caddypod… that was an absolutely fantastic post. I think you have nailed it; by having a realistic and yet optimistic view of where we stand and where we should and will head… do you see any problems for those already in practice if these changes were implemented? You think continuing education type stuff would be sufficient?
usmles reqd, and 24h on 12h off real hospital medical specialty clerkships doing “scut” work 3rd and 4th years as sub i’s. Not superficial, cursory rotations. great post caddy!
Love podiatry, John,
Thank you for your support.
Love Podiatry, I would like to believe that options for those already in practice would be made available through programs offered by the institutions. Incentivising staid practitioners would require a benefit unavailable through what currently exists. An example is the CME offered for primary care physicians MD and DO as well as NP, RN and PAs. There are hundreds of seminars monthly covering basic sciences, general medicine and every organ system of the body. Many are less than one hundred dollars. There are more workshops catering to the same audience which, if podiatry licensing boards would approve as CME would educate the older podiatrists throughout the year. To many DPMs lifelong learning is a pleasure. Many (seminars) are two to four days in length and offer AMA, AOA accreditation. I never understood why a CME program that was good enough for the AMA and AOA was or would not be OK for the Podiatry Boards. I will not digress into some fiduciary elements and realize the dynamic of a free market and podiatry education vendors profit margins. This post is not about that. Largely the educational programs offered by the mainstream AMA AOA is inexpensive and offered throughout the US and Canada. This perspective – advancing the basic eduation and continuing education is a good entry into areas unvisitied for years by many older podiatrists. Contrarily it might be prohibitive to some older podiatrists, yet not exclusionary and some DPMs would be insulted by having to learn things they wouldn’t use in their practice. My opinion is that there isn’t anything we can dismiss in learning medicine and at that how the different systems are integral to a better understanding of the foot. By minimizing costs and maximizing education more podiatrists who have been in practice for several years, even decades, would find a degree of support. Not all podiarists would care to alter their lifestyles in exchange for greater scope nor should they be required to. As a corollary to this consider board certification in the ACGME realm: After 1994 (?) specialists (neurology, ortho, rads, etc.) have to recertify. This requires lifelong learning and to many at the rule’s inception a burden. The elders were grandfathered in and the generational dynamic that those individuals would atrit or bring younger specialists into their practice as they neared retirement. Certainly there are problems with any change and most podiatrists would not venture to practice beyond the scope which they are trained.
What many folks do not realize is just because an opthalmologist, psychiatrist or one of many other medical specialists are licensed does not mean they can perform procedures outside of their specialty. There have been many cases in many states where medical specialists have been disciplined for practicing outside of their scope of specialization. On a primae facie level one would not expect people to take dangerous risks, despite their ability to do so.
To John thanks. There is really no excuse for implementing the items you reiterated in you 4:22 post today.
In all more like-minded people writing, calling, demanding and repeating as much as possible to any ear that’s available, any eyes who read and every student to demand that these changes are an imperative for the evolution of podiatry.
These are just a few ideas, I know there are plenty of others out there. The singular purpose is to maximize education, training and experience.
I spend plenty of time goofing around but in the end I get the message out and the more podiatrists on board will assure that the benefits are shared by all podiatrists.
Thanks again,
Sincerely
Caddypod as ever was
Podiatry cannot have it both ways.
Either have the pod med school training be the SAME (NOT similar) and be physicians. Or be foot dentists and have cursory medical clerkships, and students attending morning to noon medical “rotations” then going back to podiatry schools for more lectures in their 3rd or 4th years. This is NOT medical school then. One or the other. Grueling 24 on, 12 off shifts, morning report, setting up IV lines, ABGs, etc….as caddy pod has stated.
More forward and be physicians, or be foot dentists.
Podiatry, students, instructors, politicos, organization (ie., board of podiaric orthopedics, podiatric radiology, podiatric circulatory society, academy of ambulatory surgery, podiatric dermatology and on and on), our droll ad filled publications and lack of research, shoddy education and educators (compared with MD DO DDS RN) and a host of other elements work in tandem. A lot of funds are siphoned off of a very small market to keep the addled, selectively sawed off gears of podiatry scantily oiled. There is unquesionably a need that most hospitals have for scut workers. Largely these positions are held by less-than brilliant automatons collecting a pay-check.
To get the ball rolling, hiring experts and specialists in their respective fields who are on staff at some of the thousands of hospitals to bring on DPM students in their 3rd year to supervise and teach the core clerkships. The $ spent for superflous certificate granting redundancy would be better invested in an eduction. IV lines, ABGs, rounds – the whole shebang.
Logistics and communication being tantamount to focusing on this transition.
Immediately implement the USMLE I. Perhaps II. Something needs attention and figuring out better bunionectomies is not the answer.
Podiatry has been stuck in an intersection of history, technology and personal ornary self-aggrandizement of middle-age and elder podiatrists. Medical, Osteopathic and Dental (OMS) professionals whizz by as podiatry remains stuck in the untennable position getting on the road toward a genuine integrated future involving not just parity but a genuine place in the future of medicine.
We can begin this fight from the ground up. Demand. With letters, phone calls, volunteering our time and spreading the word to the complacent podiatric authorities that we need to change to keep pace with the rest of the world.
Cursory clerkships and the absence of general medical knowledge and experience will not cut it in a world needing ACLS trained, general medical savvy practitioners. It truly is an abberation that podiatrists cannot give flu shots – but some spooly at the grocery store, a clerk can.
If you pay for an education – you should demand you get what you pay for. If you are going to spend years paying back a mortgage you should have a roof over your head. Podiatry has a leaky roof and the time has come to plug the leaks.
Get out and write your all-knowing, all seeing politicos. Call the schools, write the boards. Doing something outweighs the stagnation. Either pick a lane and go with it or hide. Mostly for the last twenty years a few minor victories have occurred – largely pyrric victories. Demand advancement or sit back listen to the naysayers and if your lucky you can enjoy your slice without giving back.
I try to get out two to five letters a week and chat endlessly with so-called podiatry educators. There’s a whole lot of stubborn out there. The podiatry students have been so entrenched in the myth that they (many of them) believe podiatry school is medical school. Why change? Because we are in the wave of change and will likely drown without learning to surf.
Caddypod as ever was
Amen Caddy Pod–eloquently stated. Bunions ad nauseum, and not real clerkships a serious problem that is still present. Immediately implement the USMLE. Last time we checked podiatry schools is enormously expensive. Demand that the schools train you as a PHYSICIAN. Be relentless in demanding this. I too write letters and call–the fight will be long and ardous b/c many pod politicians like the $$$ and are lazy/incompetent/apathetic. Parity starts with substance. Train exactly the same or be a foot dentist and dwindle.
caddypod, jim,
Everything you guys are mentioning are being worked on. At my school we have “real” rotations in Emergency Medicine, Internal Medicine, General Surgery, and optional Vascular Surgery. We also get 11, one month hospital based clerkships.
I meant 11, one month long hospital based podiatric surgery clerkships
This is to someone,
What school is that?
I have been researching curricula for years. I do not believe you. Perhaps you believe yourself and are simply forwarding the false information.
Will you be taking the USMLE? Pause a few beats: “I don’t think so.”
Call them. The people at USMLE are very nice. Podiatry students are not medical students. QED, no USMLE. Better yet, if your shy, look it up online at Valuemed or on these SDN posts – not all entirely vetted materrial.
Go to the sources, filter out the dross and get the facts.
So you really think you’re taking medical school clerkships:
What hopsitals, who are the teachers, to you integate with medical students, interns and residents? Are you on-call 24 hours? What are your responsibilities?
In the past podiatry schools tried to set up DPM to MD programs with offshore medical schools – a particularly sordid agenda in that if you PAY for podiatry school why should you have to PAY for a medical school. If you are already in debt for a shoddy education why borrow and spend more for a questionable degree?
You can also get an MD degree in England which is a research degree in two years by doing meainingful (deermined by Manchester University) a podiatrist of stature obtained that title. Is it for evryone? I don’t know. It is a degree sans the rigors of med school.
Again, someone, tell me more about how these things are being worked out. The core clerkships, again are as follows: Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, OB-GYN, Psychiatry, Surgery. This is a universal right of passage for 3rd years recognized by DORA WHO ECFMG etc.
Does your basic training qualify you to take the USMLE I or II?
Do yourself a favor someone, call the USMLE and ask if you are eligible to sit for the USMLE. Then post with your response.
The offshore schools many of which used to accept the podiatry and chiropractic basic sciences no longer do so. This is a sign. Interpret it and draw your own conclusions.
I am trying to arrange curricula and continuously face resistance. It appears that podiatry education is not so much frowned upon as it is disregarded. As of yesterday I made several calls to several institutions. I suggest that if you want to post facts other than wishful thinking, anectodal blather you make some calls and do some research. Do this if you want your money’s worth from the education you deserve to equip you for an uncertain future. You are only as educated and inegrated into the mainstream as the time and effort you put into it.
Podiatric surgery is not the be all and end all of podiatry. Foot and ankle surgery requires sold training in general medicine – not just watching a few procedures but following a patient from admission to discharge, starting IVs doing I and Os tethering the lytes understanding the anion gap. Chest sounds, eye exam, cranial nn exam. All of the things glossed over because some podiatric wizzard deemed it immaterial for PODIATRIC SURGEONS. Not everyone in your class will have a uniform and stratified experience let alone every DPM school in the country. There are NO standards of education which brings light to the fact that podiatry after all these years hasn’t got its act – aside from lofty promises, high tuition and no jobs in an uncertain future – together.
You will not `learn’ that in a podiatric residency. These are things any USMG or qualified IMG has learned.
These things can be accomplshed. There are more and more DPM graduates who’ve at great expense gone on to get an MD degree despite their age and cost.
For you MD equivalent fanatics claiming pod school is like med school, the FACT that you don’t have a clue about what you do not no. Even a simple conversation in an Drs lounge at a hospital or clinic, it’s a no-brainer to “Spot the Pod”
This can change. Your pricey schools MUST make these changes and YOU have a duty to your colleagues to join the fight and demand the education you deserve!
Now go on check out the Liason Committee for medical education, the ECFMG the USMLE and the readily available data about curricula. Do it, this is a twenty minute web trip. Then make a few calls. That is a reality check. Be an activist, get into the faces of the status quo jockeys who want to keep the reins and cash your checks – challenge the podiatric rulemakers, because these same folks who keep you down now are of the same tyrannical ilk that will sit on state boards that will discipline you for freezing a wart a millimeter outside of your scope of practice and that precious podiatry license will hang in the lurch – your DPM will be a worthless document no industry will accept because, if you’ve gleaned nothing from this thread – the DPM degree does not translate into ANY lateral career moves. Perhaps flipping burgers, selling real estate or working at Disney might make for steady employment.
Make the calls Neo. Find out that the Matrix is all around you. Wake up!
Caddypod as ever was
I am doing this because I spent a lot of time and money in podiatry and reached a point where something had to be done. Since few have done it I’ve made it a line on my daily to-do list to make some effort to improve OUR profession. Its been well over three decades of the same old same old. PPAC does nothing that a groundswell of podiatrists who give a crap can’t do. Call write lobby get out on the street and shout if you have to – but don’t take it laying down. You are not getting what you pay for. If not for you then for the next batch of podiatry students fooled into the Matrices of podopolitics. Take a stand!
Definitely agree with some of the suggestions and calls for change that have been posted above.
I do have a few points of view which are perhaps slightly different.
Podiatry is not MD. First and foremost, our graduating students have to be GOOD PODIATRISTS. This is the primary expectation that hospitals and MDs and the public have of them. Now before you get bent out of shape, let me clarify by adding that being a good podiatrist requires extensive general medical knowledge, and indeed, pods should be lifelong learners and work extra hard in and after school to master systemic stuff. It is indeed crucial to being a well-rounded physician.
The push that podiatry school be absolutely equivalent to medical school would not serve us as well in my opinion. In a 4 year school, you can not take every single medical school class and rotation, and at the same time be a lower extremity surgical expert and know all the procedures front to back etc when you are done.
There has to be a give-take balance somewhere. If we are graduating as specialists, then be dam well better know our stuff when we graduate, and not just “be like” all the other med students. Now, if they want to make it just like med school, and then make residency 4 years, where you cram podiatry stuff for the first year, then that might be a more practical solution.
“Foot and ankle surgery requires extenstive medical knowlege”.. yes but it requires even more extensive FOOT AND ANKLE SURGERY KNOWLEDGE. Which we are supposed to have at the end of 4 years of school! Adding gyno and psych rotations 3rd at the expense of podiatric clinic stuff may piss off residency directors when 4th year students show up and don’t know how to debride an ulcer or understand tendon transfers (but they still have great recall of what the risk factors for PID are).
Pod students should be well-rounded enough as generalists but without losing their expertise in the lower extremity. This is what is our livelihood and what we must hold on to. This must also be obtained in only 4 years of school.
So I do agree that pod school should be AS CLOSE TO MED SCHOOL AS POSSIBLE, without sacrificing our knowledge of foot and ankle surgery, etc. Some podiatrists have a great deal of general medical knowledge, and others choose to forget it.
I have rarely if ever encountered a disease on a chart that I didn’t learn about in school and have a basic understanding of as needed by a specialist. I personally feel comfortable admitting a patient to the hospital. Understand the anion gap, comfortable with heart and lungs, cranial nerves, etc. These are all things tested on in podiatry school. 2nd and 3rd years as I recall.
Take USMLE part 1? YES. Have more hardcore general rotations… YES. Graduate students who are experts in lower extremity pathology and surgery? OF COURSE.
Caddypod, you stated that you have been trying to arrange curricula… can you elaborate on this please? I feel that you have some wonderful insight and am curious as to what you think.
Caddypod,
You didn’t read my post. I said that all of your suggestions are being worked on.
And yes the rotations are “real” medical rotations. We rotate with medical students and the attendings treat us the same.
I go to Scholl.
Look up western. They take ALL the same classes as the DO students. They plan to take ALL the same core rotations as well but instead of 4th year sub-I’s they will be doing Podiatry Rotations. And no…these are not chip and clip rotations.
I do not believe you when you say you “looked up” the curriculum. Sounds more like you gloss over it and make assumptions.
And like you said. USMLE will not happen (at tr current moment) because they won’t let us take it. You aren’t the only one pushing for that. It is currently out of the APMA, AACPM, and CPME’s hands.
you beat me to it caddy pod. The 3rd and 4th years are NOT the same as medical schools. There is still no USMLES–looking into its, and the check is in the mails–are statements that have been purported for many years by pod politicos.
We looked at the rotations and they are not 24 hour call, m and ms, they may be a 1 month “rotation” at the hospital as a 4th year in IM, but what are the responsibilities–are they IDENTICAL to the allopath students? are they 24h on 12 h off, setting up picc lines, IVs, ABGS, presenting, etc….or are they are morning cursory “rotations” where you see someone in a hospital bed, get their vitals, then scurring back to pod schools for more afternoon lecs on bunions and hammertoes, or strapping/casting? This is NOT medical school. are you listening to chest sounds, watching a patient’s PT and PTTs and using spirometry on COPD patients. THis is medicine and is required for anyone who calls themselves physicians, and before one touches a patient, they must be knowledgeable in medicine. To echo cacdy pod, the respondent: “someone” 3rd or 4th year podiatry student, IS doing peds, psych, Ob/gyn, gen surgery, IM, cards, and f/a surgery rotations side by side with allopath students? 24h on 12 h off, YEs or NO?
You do not know, what you do not know.
Some will learn medicine perhaps in residency that is still haphazard and varies wildly from program to program, others wont. there is vast inconsistency amongst students since there are no standard or uniform requirements. Yes, there is a MD academic degree that one can get from the UK, but that is not a licensed credential that one can practice allopathic, unlimited license medicine in the US. It is window dressing and for “research” purposes.
You are paying hundreds of thousands for schooling—- DEMAND this type of training, demand absoluted MD/DO training that is recognized by real boards and real world medical committee–not quasi podo political board clubs. Demand it; I called the USMLE people, and they told me that podiatry school is not medical school and I cannot take the USMLE. Please independently eval. yourselves and post herein. Foot dentists or physicians? Where;s the beef?
“Chest sounds, eye exam, cranial nn exam. All of the things glossed over because some podiatric wizzard deemed it immaterial for PODIATRIC SURGEONS.”
Done.
That’s 1st year at Scholl
“To echo cacdy pod, the respondent: “someone” 3rd or 4th year podiatry student, IS doing peds, psych, Ob/gyn, gen surgery, IM, cards, and f/a surgery rotations side by side with allopath students? 24h on 12 h off, YEs or NO?”
Side by side with allopaths. Yes.
24hr on 12hr off. No. Allopaths don’t do that either. One of my good friends is an M4 and my brother is a 2nd yr ER resident.
That is awesome training someone– in the 3rd and 4th years-identical side by side with the med schools–would like to see that for all the pod schools, you will be a great doc and an asset to your future patients.
also, in the UK, Caddy Pod, isn’t a MBBS degree earned not MD? how can one get this degree in 2 years????
In 3rd year we take IM, EM, gen surg, and optional vascular surg. 4th yr is all podiatry rotations. Hospital based podiatry. There are some crap 9-12 ones but the quality of these are on the rise. One hospital nearby has med students in vascular surgery spend some days with podiatry.
Western university is the college planning on doing the same core rotations as their DO students.
IMO the main problem in podiatry is the students. No matter how “medical” the curriculum is, nothing will stick if the students are lazy and don’t want to learn the information.
Sorry for all the posts but I gotta add one more thing.
My brother is a 2nd yr ER resident at one of top ER residencies. His hours? 40hr/week. No call. Strengths? Acute management. Quick general diagnosis. Weakness? Can’t do longterm management.
Every specialty has it’s strengths and weaknesses. The main thing to remember is to try and be aware of what you don’t know so you know when to properly consult someone else or to refer to someone else. MD specialists understand this. Orthopods dump their patients onto IM. They RUN AWAY from medical management. I had an orthopod guest lecturer in anatomy…that we took side by side with MD students…and he went on a rant about primary care trying to diagnose musculoskeletal problems and ordering unnecesary and expensive tests that they do not know how to interpret. He also said, “I don’t know anything about EKGs and all of that stuff so I refer those patients to you. If you don’t know what you ate doing then refer to me.”
Last post. I promise.
Caddypod and Jim,
I don’t know when you guys graduated but please read this thread. It has stories that show what CURRENT residents go through.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=409888
Re: miamidoc, There cannot be a give or take for podiatric medical school especially with politicos espousing “physician” status, and massive tuition expenses.
Either it is medical school (physicians) or it is not (foot dentist). Either you train identically with IM, peds, ob/gyn, psych, gen surg, or you do not. USMLE or not.
THe issue is and has always been $$$$. THey make millions off of pod students/practitioners. If the test is too hard, they either get more $$$ by “re-tests” or attrition which means less dinero into the schoolio. So, USMLE results may be very interesting to see, scores, sub-scores, etc…shining light on the podiatric medical curricula.
IF USMLEs, ACGME, and ABMS is required, The anemic pod boards and endless pod redundant committees, gavel clanking, and calls to order would cease to exist, instead replaced by authoratative and world recognised groups that license physicians.
Imagine that–scary. Might have to pony up.
Jim,
Look up Manchester University in Great Britain. Yes, MBBS is the medical degree. The MD designation is an academic degree which can be obtained through research. You might want to look at their site. One of our DPM PhD podiatrists has this title, likely for extensive research and thesis.
I do not recall precisely the post, perhaps it was someone, but; 3rd year medical students do indeed perform in the capacity of on-call, off call duties along with the interns and residents. Even the offshore schools who offer clinical rotations in the US require thse on-call sleepless nights and heightened responsibility.
Thank you for whoever contacted the USMLE. The truth has a sting to it.
Fooling oneself is fine, but when it comes to holding yourself out as a physcian (podiatric) I’d like to fancy that you have the training.
Perhaps I did gloss over Western’s curricula, but a few phone calls revealed that there are not equal responsibilities afforded to DPM students. As Jim mentioned no IVs, ABGs, PT-PTTs, and all the other meaningless at the time, often referenced as scutwork performed by scut puppies (3rd yr med students) that some day you look back upon and realize were all part of your training. Training, which you will not get in podiatry school and the politicos will put a stop to.
Thanks Caddy; I did go to the Manchester website and saw the research “MD” tdegree that takes 24 months; not unlimited clinical license degree. For “research” purposes I do not understand this, as a “PhD” is a “research” degree. window dressing? who knows?
As a former resident at an academic teaching hospital, 3rd AND 4th medical students were on 24 on, 12 off schedules taking call as sub-i’s doing everything—- set up a IV line, taking ABGs, JP (jackson-pratt) drainage outputs, I/Os, pain management—I look back with fond memories of this b/c at time I was pissed about the “scut” work–but came out well trained.
I know b/c I was their intern and thank g-d I rocked the boat at that pod school, and got great internal med, ob/gyn, and ped, training otherwise, it would be bunions, keflex, another diabetic foot lecture, and casting ad nauseum or learning to sell arch supports (foot dentistry). I wanted to take both USMLEs part I and II, but the clowns at the schools said we’re podiatrists, etc…
Most schools still have observational med “rotations” at pod school for 3 hours in the AM and then dashing off back to the school in afteroon to cast or learn about another bunion technique. The 4th year pod students are placed with 3rd year DO students and most can blow circles around the pod student b/c the majority pods do not receive real clinical medical training exactly like medical students (physicians). Didactic lectures in 3rd or 4th pod year is a JOKE. All should be the hospitals and not in podiatry offices wathching someone clip, skive, or trim dead skin. This is not medicine.
I called the USMLE and they do not classify podiatry school as med school, hence, cannot take the USMLEs. Sad. B/c I would take that exam in a heart beat–give me 3-4 weeks to review and I WILL sit for the exam.
caddypod,
You are lying. Western hasn’t even started 3rd year so how can they say that the DPM students dont have the same responsibilities as the DO students???
The plan is for them to take the same 3rd year rotations at the same hospitals and for them to be treated the same. So far they have had identical 1st and 2nd year classes. (Pod med replaced osteopathic manipulation and the DPM students stay for the summer for their biomechanics and lower anatomy).
ALL ROTATIONS IN 3rd and 4th year are HOSPITAL BASED.
Stop spreading lies and glossing over the curriculum. I’m sorry if you are unhappy with your training but Podiatry School has changed A LOT in the past 10 years! Take a good couple of hours to actually DO YOUR RESEARCH before coming on here PLEASE!
Someone–that is great at your school. Western should be commended for puting 3rd and 4th year podiatry students at exactly the same level and responsibilties as the DO 3rd and 4th years minus the manipulation courses. That is terrific. What about the other schools? That is a different story and where podiatry is severely lacking. The maverick at your school is great, however, many of the other pod schools are tuition driven, political driven and could not care less who gets a seat, as long as the loan monies keep pouring in.
There are no uniform standards even with all the pod clubs, societies, etc…also, older pods who have only 1 or 2 years of training and pod schooling that was bunion/arch support focused–where does that leave them?
they need to be brought up a standard level to help patients, etc.. the politicos have no plan, no viable plan to address this, and there are not enough sx cases for older pods to get weekend program training to bring them up to the level of more recent pods. This is a major problem. Universal scope is absolutely imperative, however, this cannot be achived without uniform education, training, and in-training exams exactly like MD/DOs. ACGME, ABMS period. Otherwise, foot dentist.
Someone–that is great at your school. Western should be commended for puting 3rd and 4th year podiatry students at exactly the same level and responsibilties as the DO 3rd and 4th years minus the manipulation courses. That is terrific. What about the other schools? That is a different story and where podiatry is severely lacking. The maverick at your school is great, however, many of the other pod schools are tuition driven, political driven and could not care less who gets a seat, as long as the loan monies keep pouring in.
There are no uniform standards even with all the pod clubs, societies, etc…also, older pods who have only 1 or 2 years of training and pod schooling that was bunion/arch support focused–where does that leave them?
they need to be brought up a standard level to help patients, etc.. the politicos have no plan, no viable plan to address this, and there are not enough sx cases for older pods to get weekend program training to bring them up to the level of more recent pods. This is a major problem. Universal scope is absolutely imperative, however, this cannot be achived without uniform education, training, and in-training exams exactly like MD/DOs. ACGME, ABMS period.
jim,
“that is great at your school. Western should be commended for puting 3rd and 4th year podiatry students at exactly the same level and responsibilties as the DO 3rd and 4th years minus the manipulation courses. That is terrific. What about the other schools? That is a different story and where podiatry is severely lacking. The maverick at your school is great, however, many of the other pod schools are tuition driven, political driven and could not care less who gets a seat, as long as the loan monies keep pouring in.”
First off, I attend Scholl College. Not Western.
Second, yes…Western is a “maverick” school but they are merely a natural progression of the profession. DMU has been taking 100% of their 1st year and part of their 2nd year with the DO students for several years now. Midwestern at Arizona has also shared pretty much 100% of their 1st and 2nd year with the DO students. Scholl takes a few classes with MD students. NYCPM shares faculty with several medical schools in New York.
“There are no uniform standards even with all the pod clubs, societies, etc…also, older pods who have only 1 or 2 years of training and pod schooling that was bunion/arch support focused–where does that leave them?”
Isn’t it true that prior to 2000 or so, Podiatrists that did not get residency training were allowed to do preceptorships with other Podiatrists and submit cases to become ABPS certified?
Many did not take advantage of this opportunity and that window has closed.
If they want, these Podiatrists can re-enter the residency match. This is the exact same process as with MD/DO. Do they have weekend courses to teach surgery to non surgical specialties?? Do they have CME credits to learn reconstructive surgery?? NO.
Starting this coming July, ALL residencies will be 3yr hospital based surgical residencies. Some…only around 10%…will not get rear foot and ankle reconstruction training but these will transition to FULL foot and ankle training in the coming years.
Standardization is only a matter of time and despite your assumptions…every year the profession gets closer and closer to that goal.
someone, thanks for posting actual facts about this profession. Its incredible how much negativity goes around on this website. I almost changed my career about podiatry and was really close to walking away from it. I even thought it was a some sorth of a scam. This is all due to reading comments from old lazy podiatrist who did not get residency positions and are now bitter. Anyway, i will be joining Scholl Next fall and i cannot wait!!
The cannard here is that if things, ier., verififable, quatifiabe comments/posts regarding “old lazy podiatist who did not get residincy and are now bitter.”
no one, eithr you are naive or part of a system that perpetuates falseor unfounded material, often fabricated and hinting on a degree of cognitive dissonance: I boght that car, it was red but I wanted gree. Since I already have it, I guess I like red.
Listen: Nothing could be more distant from my truth(s) I did not do a podiatric residince, I went to medical school and did medical res. Period. I practiced podiatry during the 80s made lots of $ and went into another industry which STILL does not recognize your precious D P M or its education. The details of my personal history are not relevant. If you read my previous posts you will discover that my daily to do list, a lenghty one at that has making podiatry better a part of it. Why? I don’t like phony crap.
Someone,
In a few years you will likely re-evaluate your comments and consider some of the things posted here. Your snotty, tenchant comments along with the insunuation that criticism and suggestions for enhancement equals negativity exemplifies naivette.
In a few years the items in some of these posts you call naysaying, negative rumbling of old hacks will take on a different meaning. When you have to pay your student loans, pay your phone bill, car payment or whatever neo-recessionary hamster wheel life finds you riding. In a few years post us all about your satisfaction level and reflect upon why you didn’t demand an education.
For the truly naive there are reasons some folks do things, like posting incessantly on these boards. These are not acts of lazy disgruntled people, contrarily they are acts of people concerned with the direction podiatry is going on.
Labelling people and their points of view to justify your own decisions is emblematic of the naive and unindoctrinated. Truly the children of Hitler youth believed every bit that what they were doing was grand.
Congratulations on taking an idealistic stand for the status quo. I hope you make lots of money and walk tall among your peers. I hope you gain the parity you aspire to and can gladly reflect upon your education as the best money can buy. Yes, keep posting. Each note brings to light the intellectual machinations of someone unscathed by the realities, by definition’ reality: what happens even when you stop believing in.
I understand why you don’t put up a fight and demand a genuine education. It is because you do not know what you are not getting. Knowledge is the gift that keeps giving. Us lazy, activists have nothing better to do but ruminate about our own failures – yeah, right.
Caddypod,
It’s obvious that you did not read any of my posts. All I have done is shown how the education has improved and how it will continue to improve.
No one,
You are definitely right about the lazy part. There are a lot of podiatrists trying to hold back the profession because they did not work hard and make things happen for themselves. Then when they fail, they blame the profession.
But I do not agree with the “old” part. Many older podiatrists have worked very hard to make podiatry a mainstream and legit specialty. If it wasn’t for them, we would not have the opportunities we have now.
Anyways, you made a great decision with Scholl. The curriculum is very difficult and will prepare you very well. Work hard. Don’t settle for minimum competency. And Goodluck.
without those “old” lazy pods, someone would be a chiropodist, selling orthotics and clipping, not being somewhat part of medicine.
we owe a great deal to those who graduated 10 or more years ago, a few actually had the female or male anatomy to address and DO something about the serious problems of podiatry.
ßomeone, someone, someone,
Laziness, hard work, and all the aphorisms, euphemisms one could apply to a life spent believing the world is flat to discover sadly at the end of days that this was not at all the case. I am lazy. I like being lazy. In fact you might call me the laziest character on earth – but laziness is something you have to earn. I earned it, I compartmentalize when it is lazy time.
A recurring facet of young pods, students and residents is that they, not unlike the political bickerings of democrats and republicans, they take a stand, dig their heels in and don’t budge.
Given the fact that some of us have had years of experience – consider that for a few beats.
Next consider that not all of us persistent posters live shallow miserable lives unahppy with the pittance of $ in our pockets, terminal acne, bad breath and hunchback deformities – not to mention the buck teet and soda bottle eye glasses.
Then, if you can imagine that there are those of us who are not obdurate, contentious cads striking out at a profession that your polemic suggests has somehow WRONGED us.
Imagine that there are those of us who stand up to canard, that false groundless perpetual theme played over and over in deafening tone like the SIrens beckoning Ulyses – the cry of the podiatrists ushering in a new generation sans the realities of life solely to perpetuate the chymera which is very much the illusion you suggest some of us have fought against.
I’ve told you that there is a difference in education regarding podiatry and medical school as did some of the other posters. I know this because I did them both. You don’t know me. You don’t know anything but for what I tell you, however if you read through my posts, not just here, but all over the web you might conclude that I’ve been around.
I want to make podiatry better. I am offering you a flashlight and you push it away. (I use the term, you, as a generalization of those calling those of my ilk naysaying lazies and podiatry haters). You stubbornly push aside a helping hand.
Fact. I am looking at the certificates on my wall. There is a DPM degree, an MD degree, several certificates including one which I like very much, my Microsurgery Training documentation. I spent some time learning microsurgery and had done limb re-implantation. Did it make me a better surgeon? Maybe. Did looking into that microscope sewing together severed vessels and nn’s with 10-0 sutures change my view of life? Absolutely. Can I understand the meaning of a good physical examination and presentation of my case at rounds? Yes. Did that make me appreciate a greater, broader knowledge of life? You betcha. Have you or will you spend hours, days weeks with dying pts. Seeing mortality – does that reallign your priorities? Does your DPM training integrate that? Not yet. Does staying up for days at a time suck – you betcha. I did my scutwork. I think it was poster John or one of the other posters that encourage that DPM students get it together and pay dues. You can’t just say the check is in the mail you gotta pay your dues, They suck but in the end those one hand ties and starting IVs and all the other scut ads up to a well rounded doc. Once you’ve delivered a baby or two, or did your ER call and were given responsibilities do you realize what you’re made of. Can you hack it or is this just blather to you. Am I just saying these things to boast and say I did this and that and all that stuff to diminish podiatry? NO. If that’s what you think you are sadly mistaken and I will work tirelessly to make it possible so that one day podiatry students appreciate these things. It is things that EVERY 3rd year med student around the world experiences.
So far John seems to get it. I make these posts and write those letters and lecture and get on the phone and do what needs to be done to advance podiatry. My apparent excess in writing posts is a fraction – a very small one at that – of the time and effort I put in every day. Not only in my professional and academic life, but; in everything I do. There’s no such thing as doing a half-ass job. If I go I go as far and hard and fast as I can. No settling till I’m gone. I’ll sleep when I’m dead.
Show me the FACTS. Show me where the podiatry bosses have taken those steps toward filling your minds with experience, academics and then you willl see the parity not the second class citizenship podiatry has achieved (Podiatry used to be third class, before that no class at all).
Break free of the dystopic future awaiting your young minds vieled by a shroud of mythology. At least reach a modicum of sensibility in your understanding of the differences which hold you back and forge toward an education which will be the foundation of lifelong learning. (I know I’ve read your posts-none of which demonstrate core clerkships).
We’ve been over the USMLE again and again. Some snotty, trenchant phone jockey spews: “Podiatry students cannot take the USMLE.” This MUST change.
Here is another one. Sermo. An online site for physicians. Try logging in. Its an exercise and might prove educational. Maybe rattle your cocksure attitude a bit edging you toward DEMANDING what you’ve gleaned from some of these posts.
Caddypod as ever was
I showed you the sites to visit.
Caddypod,
Great post. I think we agree on a lot of things but disagree in whether the glass is half full/half empty. Maybe it’s because I’m a naive podiatry student, brand new to the profession.
Has the Podiatric curriculum/education advanced in the past 10 years? Absolutely.
Are we “there” yet? No.
My take on it is. I can’t change my immediate future but I’m confident that podiatric education will continue to improve. I will voice my opinions regarding parity but I will also try to keep a positive attitude and try to take advantage of any opportunities presented to me.
My brother in the ER gets some 3rd yr pod students and has commented their lack of general medical knowledge. In my opinion, this is because the majority of podiatry students do not take advantage of the opportunities presented to them. They see the non podiatry rotations as a hurdle to cross. A burden that they “just have to pass”. When I’m in my 3rd yr medical rotations maybe I will stay the extra hours, during lunch, come in early, etc to gain as much general medical knowledge as I can.
I will check out the websites you mentioned. Just wondering, would you be willing to post your identity? Like I said earlier, I think we have the same idea and I think I could learn much from someone who has “been there”.
I tried the sermo website; cannot sign on as they require MD (physician) and a ABMS requirement for specialty.
To someone, that is the major problem with podiatry schooling–you are paying massive amts. of $$$$ and that fact that medical training is not oonsistent is ridiculous. I thought that you were doing ob/gyn, peds, IM, gen surg, and psych as a 3rd year right along/side by side with MD/DO students MS III’s why are these pod students learning all this while setting up IV lines, I/Os, ABGs, etc…that is scut work and is what makes a doctor–not selling arch supports or tracing lines down the heel bone with the infamous tractographs—that’s medicine????
the problem still remains with low caliber pod students, schools sucking up whereever that fogs mirrors, and there are a few perhaps, that choose podiatrics as a first choice–that is great demand excellence from those school, the rest are dental rejects, MD/DO rejects, and/or those that want to be foot dentists and have their neponomics practices ready to go when they “graduate” or get their uncles/father’s residency “program.”
Stage a peaceful revolt–USMLEs only and do NOT take the NBPME nonsense. Show parity–you are paying for it—$$$$ student loans for 2nd class status and physician espousing. ER 12h on, 12 off, physician or foot dentist. It is YOUR choice, you decide. Pay your dues miserably and earn the physician status, or train in podiatry, and be a foot dentist. That is fine, however, the title physician is bestowed on those who went through ACGME training, and ABMS training. VERY few pods do this as many cannot or are not permitted to do this thanks to other pods who are lazy, incompetent, apathetic, or delusional—they do not know what they do not know.
The pods rather talk/do about bunions, arch supports, or strapping—ask them about IL-6, IL-12, IL-4, CXC chemokines, PTT/PT, Factor 13 def., etc…. GOOD LUCK. Not didactic, but practicing/ward knowledge as MS-3 and MS-4. Good luck.
So I have a question for Jim.
If podiatry school becomes identical to med school… when are we going to learn podiatry?
The med students dont know sh*t about podiatry. And if you have as much experience as you say, then you should know that podiatry is more than strappings and bunions. A hell of a lot more. If you disagree with that, then you are obviously a troll.
What does an MS3 know about foot and ankle surgery? Or wound care? Or peripheral nerve surgery? Or lower extremity trauma? Or lower extremity derm even? Im not talking about didactic knoweledge either, Im talking clinical knowledge and experience.
Again, I just wanna know, if we make podiatry school completely equal to med school, when are we going to learn this stuff? Im interested to see how you would incorporate it.
And if you say that its just easy stuff that all med students know, then I’ll know youre a troll.
P.S. All that gen med knowledge you all keep posting that “pods dont know”.. diseases and biological factors, etc. We learn about all that stuff in school. You think we dont take the basic sciences? And they ARENT watered down… I guarantee you i know that crap as well as any orthopod in practice. Or cardiologist. or any other procedural based specialist.
you guys talk like all med students and “real physicians” know all that crap their whole lives.
Everyone does what they are trained to do.
Now, Im not disagreeing that we should be demanding more for our education and clinic experiences. Im just sick of some of the posts claiming that pods dont know sh*t about medicine. Maybe YOU dont, but you sure as hell cant speak for me.
Jim,
“ask them about IL-6, IL-12, IL-4, CXC chemokines, PTT/PT, Factor 13 def., etc…. GOOD LUCK.”
Haha. This must be a joke. I’ll give u an answer in a few months when I’m done with microbiology and immunology. This is 1st year at Scholl…
I agree with Curious.
And by the way caddy pod,
“Someones” posts have not been snooty at all. on the contrary, they have only been matter-of-fact and informative.
It is odd that you would make that accusation when many of your earlier posts in this thread came across as very condescending and sarcastic.
I personally agree with almost everything you propose as of late.
I just dont like that if a anyone makes a post defending current podiatry education or training, pointing out its drastic improvements – you think they are an idiot and naiive and that they dont know what they are talking about.
Other than that- i appreciate you trying so hard to continue advancing our profession!
Curious:
Thank you for your reply; I am not emotionally attached to podiatrics. more interested in progressing forward with absolutely consistent training (school and residency at an MD/DO side by side, exact same boards, training, AOFAS, etc….) and getting rid of the dead weight politicos, deans, and other do-nothings that feed students, residents, prosp. students, and practitioners endless jibber jabber, and feces. As caddy pod states, will not tolerate crap or lies.
Either learn the required core competences, internal medicine, ob/gyn, psych, gen surg, 24 h, 12 off, as a sub-i, MS-III and MS-IV, or you are a podiatry student 9-12 noon, and heading back to afternoon didactic lectures about foot and ankle surgery or casting for nonsense orthotics/arch supports in the third year. Yes, 4th year are externships of varying experience, competency, hit/miss, and clipping clerkships watching someone apply a cast, or debriding dead skin, or selling arch supports/orthotics. This is not medicine.
OTC is just as effective as custom nonsense, and these are NOT medical devices. Therefore, not medicine. Over pronation is NOT a medical disease nor is bisecting the heel with the tractograph-hocus pocus biomechanical religous zealatry a medical school class.
Training MUST be medical school training. 3rd and 4th years, podiatric medicine classes can be incorporated as required courses in place of electives for allopath students instead of surg path, one takes gen pod med, instead of gastro, pods will take podiatric surgery rotation. Didactic lectures should be ELIMINATED from 3rd year. Unfortunately, this is not the case at all schools.
The cytokines mentioned are of immense importance regarding LE diabetic wounds that are discussed on the wards of IM rounds and m/ms during MS III and IV years. In fact, IL-8 is of particular importance. You can take electives in trauma, derm, path, and learn about how it applies to the LE. However, there is NO substitute to medical training.
Podiatry training may have “improved” slightly since 10 years ago, however, there remains inconstistency, and no uniformity amongst pod schools, there also remains inter and intra inconsistency in residency too that will not be ameliorated by the all consuming 3 year residency. For >$160,000 in tuition, one must DEMAND parity; especially when the term physician is used. USMLES required STAT.
Rather have a few very high quality academic residency programs we are afraid that some have been quickly slapped up at band-aid box general to account for another residency shortage which has happened many times in the past b/c the schools are tuition driven and act independently of what’s good fo rthe profession. What about the patients/their families?
either it is medical school or podiatry school. For the profession to move forward, it must promptly evolve to medical school with ACGME and ABMS. Otherwise, it can stagnate with a few more rotations with MS-IIIs, combined with the “essense” of podiatry. however, that “essense” has not served well. AOFAS has already stated what podiatry needs to do to earn equity, back in 2007. ~ 4 years later, there are miles to go before we sleep…..
Jim,
Now you’re talking… now im inclined to agree with you because you presented an actual plan with the curriculum… I believe all Podiatry students would be in favor of the curriculum and training you propose. I think we are almost there, but could still improve substantially.
By the way, could you elaborate a bit on what AOFAS said?
I just read their position from 2007… I was surprised at how positive it was. I thought that there would have been a lot more politics displayed. It seems as though they were actually willing to help out in advancing oir profession. Was this just an act do you think or legit?
Jim,
You said “IDENTICAL to the allopath students? are they 24h on 12 h off, setting up picc lines, IVs, ABGS, presenting, etc”
I asked my brother, an MD ER resident, and he said, “what is this guy talking about?? What MS3 does picc lines, EKGs? 24hr on 12hr off?! Is he crazy?”
Nuff said…
ms-IVs, they are on 24h on, and 12 off, no they do not sign off on ekgs they are reading them as a sub i with the intern., they are med students. they start iv lines, and assist picc lines. isn’t this what you are doing someone at scholl. did this as a pod student and rocked the boat-ocapsized the leaky podiatry schooling boat, because the schooling was not medical school rather i knew what i did not know and realized that pod had sub optimal trng.
you stated that as a third year pod stud you are doing im, gen surg, peds, psych, and ob/gyn at scholl? or am i mistaken.thak you.
curious, the aofas statement on pod, was that there must be ACGME and ABMS board exams as any other MD specialty. the students MUST take USMLEs. trng/schooling must be exactly uniform for safety of patients. the am ortho assoc were rightly adamant on rigor, MCATs only, and vastly improving admission standards to MD level. this was in 2007, on student forum aofas / ama statement on podiatry.
having work closely with f/a orthos and sports orthos, given medical trng, i completely agree with them, until podiatry vastly improves by paying their dues, no backdoors, or “similar” trng; cannot achieve legitmate parity until the above is achieved with the pods getting in the way of status sorry quo or students, reisents, pratitioners, do nothing deans et al. who do not know what they do not know. physician or foot dentist, the road not taken…robert frost…two roads, i chose the one less travelled by, and it has made all the differece.
Jim,
Nice way to back track. P3s and P4s do ankle reconstruction surgery…oh uhh I mean assist…
BIG difference. Stop making it seem like the med students do more than they do.
caddy pod,
i feel bad that you had to go through md school after going through with podiatry. I feel much sympathy for you knowing that you did really poorly in podiatry school and couldn’t hack a residency spot. you then struggled for many years and then went to medical school and finally graduated at age 45. you are still paying your loans and are probably working as a family doctor monitoring patients blood pressure while your old podiatry pals are millionares by now. I feel your pain old fart. Life must suck to be a 50 years old “physician.”
btw, i think jim and caddy pod as ever was (wtf kind of name is this) are either the same person or two guys that are homosexuals.
podiatry is podiatry. if you are a dumbfcuk then you will fail and become another caddy pod as ever was and go to carribean and try to get a MD and come on these forms when u are 50 years old and instead should be banging your wife. OR you can go to any podiatry school, rock it, get a awesome residency, and make six figure salary. Choice is urs.
Finally, i am all for the USMLE exam!
i’ve been waiting to see this caddy prick be put in his place.
lol,
What place is that?
Caddypod as ever was
no one and lol,
“Dumbf*&k” homosexual. That’s cute. What sandbox is this? I see you have the emotional makeup for a good residency at San Quentin.
You don’t know jack about me.
In fact you don’t even know my gender, age, location or anything
I don’t do family practice and didn’t go to med school at 45. I finished my eduation before 30 so have another drink and think up some other way to take a shot at me. Maybe you’re hitting the bong or tossing back some Percs or Vics. Future junkies of podiatry.
Yeah, calling people queer is a real jab. People who invoke the homosexual insult usually have some inclinatory issues themselves. I’ve read that misogynists usually are males who, in trying to get in touch with their feminine side, ultimately get in touch with someone’s masculine side. Don’t worry I won’t ask and … oh they changed that law … you can tell now. Nobody gives a crap.
Some folks remain in the realm of moronity for a lifetime. Maybe you did find your rightful level of incompetence in podiatry as it is, I supose you’re next moves are to do the heavy insult route – go for it.
Maybe you will try and find me and try shaking me down. Maybe even take a swing. Great! If you can afford the legal fees…I can spend the time in court.
Righteous jerkoffs like you – your comments speak volumes – of the emotional lability level of insult you can hurl to make you feel good about yourself – now that’s podiatric.
You and lol couple of prime podiatry students ready to thrust their self righteous wisdom onto the scene.
Clowns, lol and no one, if you become millionaires it sure won’t be from podiatry, If it is – a half dozen years in lockup might get you the sort of education you’ll need when there’s no place to hire felonious folks as you aspire to be.
Oh yeah, after your 3 year residencies, and your first million earned from working at the nation’s (US) nail-gardens you might not want to wear cuffed trousers while driving your Porsche, nail clippings have a way of sullying the floor mats.
Thanks for the entertainment. I can see a pair of yo yo’s beyond hope – looking forward to your sucksess.
Caddypod as ever was
I have been in practice for seven years and it is not what I thought it would be. Other podiatrists do not help you as much as I believed they would. I did a three year residency and got a position with a prominent DPM for 35K a year I get to pocket 4 % of what I bring in. I can not get bank loans to open up my own office so I will sub let from an internist or GP. Orthopedic groups are an option but I have not found a good financial fit. I have license in a few states and in light of the fact I am trained in rearfoot the state I am in does not allow for podiatrists to do it. That sucks. I am all for a national scope of practice. I don’t care for having to pick up and move just because of license scope issues but would like to practice to the full extent of my training. It is not cheap to maintain several licenses but you never know when you have to move. The DPM I work for has my MC #, DEA # Mcaid# and does all the billing. The guy bills every patient for everything. He advertises for free exam but bills insurance companies for the x rays, ultrasound, fungal cultures, doppler and holds on to the bill for 3 or 4 visits. He makes a fortune. My concern about this sort of relationship is that when I leave the DPM will still have my #s. He bitches about not being able to give flu shots because that brings patients in the door. Any thoughts on flu shot by DPMs.
This is the real world of podiatry. I got good grades good residency good foot surgeon but I do not live where I can rock.
There is nothing “wrong” with podiatry it is the laws and rules that govern us. Join the APMA and donate what you can so they can get the laws changed by the time you get out there and work. If you can swing it open up your own practice in the state you want. Just get as many state licenses as you can. I don’t care what they call me with respect to physician or podiatrist I just want them to call me. Period. Getting patients in the door is what it is all about. Be prepared to invest in EMR and learn everything you can about coding and billing. Do your own billing. A few friends of mine did not do this and got audited and had to pay back money to medicare and medicaid. Podiatry school should have classes in billing and coding. Nobody goes out of their way to teach this. I recently had a request for records for neurma injections and I am sweating out what the results of it will be. The DPM I work said that if I have to pay back any money it is all on me. At 40% having to pay 100% REALLY SUCKS. Be careful when you cut a deal working for another doctor and hammer out the details of who is responsible for what when an audit comes. There are plenty of eyes on you when you start billing out the big dollars. I read some of the posts from caddy and the guys who said they are going to make millions. Do your self a favor and spend some time in the million dollar practice and not only shadow the doctor but check out the billing department. There is money to be made but it depends where you practice and setting up your own office. Be your own boss. Out here in real world podiatry nobody cares where you trained or if you have this or that degree. A patient shows up to see you because they have a foot problem and you have to sell yourself as the expert. A lot goes into your personality being the most important instrument in your black bag. Eli.
How do you know that residency directors and such are not monitoring this board?
I conduct myself on line as if the powers that be monitor and or store everything coming out of my computer.
I might be anon but make it a point to use someone elses computer when posting controversial things.
I am with the gay and lesbian alliance of podiatrists and take offense to some of these posts. I would like to inform you that using ones sexual orientation to berate insult or harrass someone is a hate crime. By the way look around your class you probably do not know who is or is not a member of the alliance. If you have no tolerance for gay/lesbian people one would imagine your level of tolerance for people of color jews moslems asians and many other minorities. There is NO place in the healing arts for bigots and racists.
Wow… this thread quickly has degenerated… again
Caddypod’s alter egos are back…
There were some informative posts here but a lot of creepy ones.
I am a college junior looking at health professions and if this is what podiatry is about. I want no part of it, you people are freaking spooky. Whoever said that podiatry is a bullshit profession was right. You guys are crazy.
I was going to apply to podiatry school but this site saved me the postage. You are all a bunch of freaks. I’m going to dental school a legit career. You guys are prime assholes. I would not suggest seeing pudiatrist to my worst enemy you guys are retards.
used to be a nuclear reconstructive podaitric foot and ankle surgeon, now i tame detritus and enjoy those tootsies are cut with finesse.
al bundy is not for me. ‘special’ shoes, and other stuff, do not see hand surgeons selling mittens, gi guys giving restraurant reviews, or derms selling tuppees or cutting hair, or proctologists selling diapers.
no more nuclear reconstructive podaitric foot and ankle surgeon. Detritus is the where its at.
Student-
I hope that’s not actually a serious post and if it was I would seriously question your intelligence. Anyone who makes a career choice based off of what they read on online forums is an idiot. For all you know the “podiatrists” whose messages you are reading could very easily be some bum using the local library computer. Look how easy it is to make a comment on here. I would seriously hope prospective students of any medical field would be wise enough to do their own fact based research. I realize that more than likely you are just a troll and have never actually had any interest in podiatry and are probably one of the same posters from above with a different name, but for any prospective students reading this I sincerely hope you do your own research and do not let a handful of trolls have an impact on any type of decision you may make.
Hey Pod I never posted here and don’t want to come back you already called me a troll whatever that is. What kind of profession does that? I go tot he Carib. Site and the Med School site. This paranoid stuff is not for me it looks like your profession has its hands full of really messed up people. I get two insults from one post. As if I would take a profession like this seriously. The only thing that stands out is that podiatry doesn’t have its shit together. Three negatives = a run, run fast. All these whack job postes = scary stuff.
Student-
The fact is (if that was actually a genuine post) you are drawing conclusions about a field of medicine based off of what people are saying on internet forums. THESE PEOPLE COULD BE ANYBODY. I don’t know how much clearer I can say that.
Regarding your comment of “The only thing that stands out is that podiatry doesn’t have its shit together”, I can assure that it does not matter which field of medicine you go into there will always be people unhappy about one thing or another. All I am saying is look at some factual websites with legitimate statistics before making any type of decision about any career path you might choose.
there are roughly 10k podiatrist practicing in 2009 with a salary of over 130k.
here is the government basted source: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291081.htm
this profession is not some sort of a scam or whatever it is you guys think.
Haha… truly if you base your career in internet anonymous forums … then you aren’t the wisest. Actually Podiatry has its stuff together more than ever… but online there are always plenty of crazies and liars and alter egos and anonymous weirdness going on… I think the moral of the story is to take everything you read on an anonymous internet forum with a grain of salt…
Pod- you and I think alike. I like how you call out the bs when you see it
You are all assholes. Podiatry sucks always has always will.
You are all assholes.
If you go to podiatry school make sure to get a PA license so you can make $ after your 3 yr residency and have a plan B. I am an asshole who did my three years and it ain’t easy. I opened up office advertise give freebie lectures but making ends meet in this economy is difficult. It does not matter what degree you have you need patients. Patients do not just beat a path to your door once you open up an office. You need an income stream and podiatry does not allow for taking ER call or any other revenue generator. Please educate your selves about the business of medicine.
Do your self a favor. Good grades + good residencey + charm and skill DO NOT neccesarily make for a guaranteed ride. You MUST have an alternate income stream while building a practice and paying bills.
Here’s some real facts.
According to MGMA Physician Surveys, the median Podiatric Surgeon collects $580k. This is the same as what general surgeons collect and more than ER and anesthesia. The median General podiatris collects $380k which is more than IM, FM, and most peds specialties.
Anon… you have already admitted to being the same person as caddypod. Please do not tell lies as though you did a residency at all, much less a 3 year one. Or that you are still in practice at all.
Caddypod, you had some legitimately good ideas earlier, but now have apparently reverted back to different character nonsense which obviously destroys the productivity of this forum. Obviously you lie about a lot of stuff since you obviously couldn’t have done pod school then practiced and made money in the 80s and then did med school in the early 80s? And also finished all your schooling by age 30…. clearly there is something fishy here. You have indeed made it clear that you enjoy teling stories and that it is your livelihood
Ill check back from time to time and see if there is anything of imporance being discussed here, but for now appears to be a waste of time
pod surgeons make 580K. and general pods make 380K, podiatry is on the right track. it is a great career-we are THE LE experts, and the other docs know this that is why we are very respected for our medical and surgical acumen.
i am sick of people giving negative comments about this awesome field. we are physicians and can do it all. DPM and very proud of it. we are foot and ankle surgeons and make $580K; the other general pods like caddy pod are making 380K. Iam P-2 and the future is very bright.
Stacey,
I agree with you that we are THE LE experts.
Yes there are podiatrists who make 500k+ but my post was about collections not salary. Collections are before overhead. Considering that overhead is usually about 50% then the average general podiatrist and surgical podiatrist makes around 190k and 290k respectively. This is right up there with many MD specialties.
Not been at computer for a few days – nothing new. By the way, why would I post as anon or anyone else when my brand of podiatry ranting has been established?
To set the folks who dislike what I’ve had to say about podiatric enhancementsm ie;, clinical clerkships and USMLE are a means to parity not a put-down of the profession. Track back the posts on the almost uncensored site and you’ll see the same old same old issues a decade ago.
I only post as Caddypod. Whoever said that there isn’t much on this thread that’s not bullcrap is right…to a point. The suggestions to go out and make things happen for change leading to parity are viable components. The information re: the academic MD degree from Manchester is real. The contacts and starting points for a review of reality, not ancdotal blather were provided: USMLE, DORA, WHO, ECFMG, LCGME as well as any and all mainstream medical bodies and their inclusing of the DPM. The FACT that the translation of DPM into anything other than clinical podiatry is a chore few want to address suggesting that current DPM students and residents have not considered the surprises life has in store for you. Things happen, physically, politically, financially which require us to adapt – I point this out because the vast amount of time, energy and money spent to form a well trained podiatric surgeon SHOULD and COULD translate into lateral moves in society, not just in the US. As of Today, December 21, 2011 the letters D P M are unacceptable credentials for those wishing to branch out into industries outside of podiatry. Like I’ve said, I have the letters on some checks after my name and as of two days ago, perhaps the thousandth person asked what it stood for. I have not given up and continue to work the political, academic and other sources to advance podiatry. This isn’t some altogether altruistic endeavor: I spent four years in an institution (mad house) took out loans and got a sub-par education that prepared me for more – I got an acceptance to a podiatry residency within the same week of getting accepted to med school. I made a choice. Period. A choice. Life boils down to the choices we make. Whether it’s doing podiatry med school dental school, trade school marriage, divorce, and just about everything we have. Many of you are too young to appreciate that you are only going to be around for a finite period. You won’t always have the stamina, health, motivation to proceed when the time comes to make a choice regarding your career. My main thrust is to share with you a basic foundation to prepare you for that time. The more education you have the better position you are in to make changes. I could continue about doctors who had gone out on disability in their forties and/or fifties who went to law school. But that’s a whole different thread, one I might have rambled about on another site.
But if you scroll through some of the other sites you’ll be able to tell who’s posting by the tone of their narrative. Everyone writes in a distinct voice. Clearly readers can discern the difference in the author’s voice for each post.
To the post remarking about my personal history, Lovepodiatry: I went to pod school then med school in one sweep. DPM school then MD school and did surgical trainging in early eighties and worked in clinics and had my own office where I did a lot of procedures. I did a lot of the MIS procedures. I know they are frowned upon today, but that was then – the current of history has changed and that, Lovepodiatry is that. After the birth of my first child I was 30 years old. I burned away at making $ until life changed. I don’t know if it was because of my education and training but I was invited to do some work in another industry. It didn’t pay as well, but I saw the writing on the wall – medicine in general was going to go through some changes. It was time to either bite the bullet or sieze the opportunity. I went for it. I did something else. An entirely different industry. It was dumb luck. The writing on these posts is an exercise – use your imagination as to what industry. I have a a few kids and pass along the information I share at these sites. The 27 year old consdiered podiatry school and that’s fine. As long as the kid gets an MD degree too. Same for the other kids.
To the posts that want to see me gets what’s coming -eh? I’ve been shot at before.
Yes. You can make a half mil easy in podiatry. Its work, but; do yourself a favor. Save. Save as much $ as you can.
You can take these posts with a grain of salt or hede my words as to things to come. If the past is a metric of our future, replete with promises (ala DPM leaders) then you might consider the advice I’ve passed along. The more education you get the better situated you are for the curve balls life throws.
Caddypod as ever was
Welcome back caddypod. Thanks for clarifying
caddy penis as ever was,
Thanks for all your great inputs. we really appreciate it!
I see no reason to get a dpm and then add another 7 years minimum getting an md… just get an md in the first place if you wanted that, save yourself the extra quarter million. Not to mention the bank you could make practicing Podiatry during those 7 years. You don’t need an md to practice as a podiatrist… an md for prestige, parity, or just to feel cool? Seems like an economically foolish move if in the end you are still gonna practice podiatry anyway… if we are talking about saving money and preparing for uncertain economic times, then I have a suggestion for dpm grads- do a powerhouse residency, work your ass off and make
A ton of money and save it. Don’t waste seven valuable years chasing a degree you don’t need and paying out the ass more tuition when you could be having a lucrative practice… just my two cents
i have been reading that podiatrists and foot and ankle surgeons DPMs can’t give flu shots. this is wrong. if we are physicians why can’t we give flu shots–nurses can. this is ludicrous. many of our colleagues have mphs, and such, and since immunizations are a public health issue, seasonal flu shots would be important. reading back to 2005, DPM s have been talking about this and still we cant give shot?, and given H1N1, this would be even more important for our role as physicians.
Can you explain why it would be important for us to give flu shots??
IMO we have bigger things to worry about in the foot and ankle.
Conceptually, store clerks with little or no training are conscripted by management to perform this task. It is time consuming, relatively benign as a mechanical procedure, but; some have complications and/or reactions. The clerk giving the shot has no responsibility, skin-in-the game if you will, as the clerk is under the supervision of the store’s pharmacist or manager. Really well trained experts. At least better equipped than DPMs in the eyes of the powers that be.
Why is this an issue for podiatrists? It exemplifies the minimalization of podiatry. This minute facet of seasonal behavior goes directly to the point of the podiatrists concieved place in the scheme of things. Despite education, training and experience (intricate complex surgery, joint, tendon ligament nerve injections etc.) it has been argued and deemed innapropriate for podiatrists to give flu shots. Likely because the scope of practice of podiatrists can not manage a complication resulting from a flu shot. Of course the concept that anaphalactic reactions occur in podiatry offices from time to time requiring life saving measures by the DPM, that DPMs administer and prescribe mediations affecting every organ system is not a consideration by the powers that be.
Is this a small thing to worry about?
It is emblematic of the minimalization of podiatry and the relative insouciance by podiatry boards. Flu shots given by clerks, pharm techs LPNs and prohibiting DPMs from addressing a public health issue is an issue that should – though I doubt it will be – addressed.
Another example of how your state and national organizations work for you.
I have been over this material again and again. Podiatrists have little or no input into the legislative arena. With maybe 12-14 thousand podiatrists, half content with their lot in life the other half too busy on the hamster wheel the politicos will let things stand as they are. Nicely referenced that this has been a dubious point since 2005, actually its been decades. Changes to the curricula and enhancement of education along with USMLE clinical clerkships grass roots students holding up their palms and saying: “I’ve been brainwashed!” Making demands to change podiatry and transferring out to DO or MD programs to do a one year internship and then if they love the foot, spending some time podiacking about until they pick up some of the so-called limb saving procedures – The future of podiatry is in the hands of students and educators. Diabetes and wound care have brought some attention to woundcare podiatrists, but; that is something which will ultimately change with the advances in genetics, stem cell research and the ultimate goal of treating, perhaps eliminating the dire effects of DM.
I would hate to think that the podiatrists basking in the glory of diabetic woundcare fret over a possible cure for the disease. But stranger things are true.
Podiatry will only transcend its minimalization when it achieves parity, not just with mainstream medicine, where podiatry will likely remain the world wrestling to medicine as the MD DO realm is to the NFL. Parity with PAs RNs LPN/LVNs.
Even a paper degree from a Brittish school is better than the unmarketable DPM degree. At least it will get a forward thinking DPM in the testing center at the USMLE and ECFMG. Its up to you DPM to take it from there. You may very well look back ten years hence and seriously regret the point of view you clutched to in school. Believing the world is flat is no way to keep your mind open.
Change the degree, give the flu shots, take the USMLE, come on already its been decades of pyrrhic victories that podo leaders pat themselves on the back for. In reality its the hospitals and surgi centers who NEED outpatient surgery patients to stay in business. FOLLOW THE MONEY.
Podiatric Revolution, yes, that’s what we need. A Tea Party for podiatrists. Not T party in lining up as many tenotomies as you can, but standing up to the well nourished leaders, pseudo leaders content with what is and afraid to embrace what could be. As it’s been stated again and again students you don’t know what you don’t know. If you’re gonna go into debt for years you’d best get the education you’re paying for. At a few hundred G’s and 3 year residency being advised you’d be breaking the law for giving a flu shot is not just a slap in the face but a wake up call, screeching alarm clock and jolt that should get your butts moving.
We have an African American President, Homosexuals in the military, change in healthcare policy – all these things have happened – but DPMs still can’t give a lousy flu shot.
Wake up and smell the turd you’re stepping into – it’ll stick to your soles for life. If you let it.
Podiatry schools cannot afford to let you drop out or transfer. Why? Follow the $.
They need you more than you need them.
“Hi, I’m a DPM,” will actually mean something other than an arched eyebrow or a woman clutching her purse or:
“DPM?” What the hell is that?”
Caddypod as ever was
Exemplary
If you give a crap about what I said print out the last post and/or email it to every podiatry student you can as well as the fearless, FECKLESS leaders of podiatry.
searched and found that not giving flu shots is a scope of practice issue, the podiatry board minutes from many licensing boards stated this. outside scope of podiatry for each state.
this is wrong. we do perform reconstructive surgeries yet can’t give a flu shot? we are physicians. howver, in some states too, cannot use this term, one can only use the provider designation or file under allied health? nps/pas/lvns can do this and their scope is all body. perhaps, giving DPMs a pa degree would help instead of academic md degrees, mphs, and mbas.
podiatric surgeons and general podiatrists see alot of elderly people. it would be a great service to give seasonal flu shots–even medical assistants can give them? yet podiatrists can’t? schooling, three res, loans, and we can’t give a seasonal flu shot but lvns and pharm techs can? this belittles and marginalizes the degree similar to verbal abusers and their victims. put the profession in their place, and limit their interaction with anything not podiatry.
as an aside, agree, without diabetes, podiatrists would be in big trouble. starting to research podiatry is coming to see to some eye openers.
That’s your best argument?? “We are physicians”??
We are lower extremity experts. We have bigger things to fight for than flu shots. What about ankles for the remaining handful of states? What about foot and ankle surgery privileges at numerous hospitals across the country? Universal scope? Admitting privileges? Equal reimbursement? We have bigger things to worry about than waste time on flu shots.
Do ortho surgeons give flu shots? What about general surgeons? Ophthalmologists? Cardiologists? Pulmonologists? They are all physicians and I bet they’ve never given a flu shot!
Stop worrying about what a “real physician” does! We are specialists…we specialize on the foot and ankle. Leave the flu shots to the nurses and pharmacists.
It’s funny reading the forums. In the DO forum they always ask “can a DO become a neurosurgeon?” and in the DPM forums “can a DPM treat an MI?”. One forum is worried about become some 1 in a million specialist while the other is worried about become a dime a dozen PCP.
This is a big problem in podiatry. Students more worried about “looking like a physician” than treating the patients.
FYI,
The reason Podiatrists can’t give flu shots is because the flu is out of scope. It’s not because a flu shot is an intramuscular shot in the deltoid. If for some reason the flu shot is proven to help with some sort of foot and ankle pathology then it would become within scope. But Podiatrists CAN give intramuscular shots.
Scope of practice laws are all about the diagnosis. There are Podiatrists all over the country that harvest bone grafts from the entire length of the Tibia and even from the ILIAC CREST…that’s in the hip for those who don’t know…
hundreds of thousands in student loans, 3 year res, 11 years min. schooling, and a scope of practices that is not equal to a medical assistant or an LVN?
Stacey,
If you really think that then please don’t go into podiatry. You will just bring the profession down.
Stacey. Please don’t be an idiot. Medical assistants and nurses do not prescribe nor can they perform surgery. You are confusing. One post you rave about how you are dpm and proud and the next you make posts like above. I agree with someone… perhaps you should go into medical assisting so that you have a “wonderful” scope and can give flu shots
Jeez people. You never hear dentists gripe that they can’t give flu shots. That’s not what they pay tuition for
2007:
The Pennsylvania Supreme Court recently held that a Podiatrist could not give expert testimony against an Orthopedic Surgeon concerning the proper standard of care in a medical malpractice lawsuit concerning bunion care. Wexler v. Hecht, 928 A.2d 973 (Pa. 2007). The highest court in Pennsylvania found that because podiatrists attend podiatric school and not medical school, the training and licensing of a podiatrist is different from a medical doctor. Consequently, as a matter of law based on the Court’s interpretation of section 512 of the MCARE Act, which limits expert who may testify on the standard of care to those with an “unrestricted physician’s license,” a podiatrist does not possess the required expertise to give expert testimony against an orthopedic surgeaon, who holds a medical degree. This holding demonstrates how the MCARE Act has limited the previous Rules of the Pennsylvania courts, as this ruling apparanently now trumps the much more liberal Pennsylvania Rule of Evidence 702 concerning expert testimony.
The Pennsylvania Supreme Court’s analysis in concluded that there is bright line rule separating physicians and podiatrists. Physicians must either have a medical degree or an osteopathic degree, which is a medically based. Both Medical Doctors (M.D.) and Osteopaths (D.O.) are trained about the entire body and are licensed and boarded by the same/similar private and state organizations. Podiatrists hold only a podiatric degree and their education and training is limited to the feet. Podiatrists are also licensed and tested by a different organization. Consequently, the Court found that Podiatrists did not have the proper expertise to offer standard of care testimony against orthopedic surgeons.
As a P-2, we need to do much better. usmles, acgmes, and all the like as mds. we are paying way too much tution money to put up with this. as a first generation college student, and now podiatry school, i am disturbed by own research, websites, and speaking with people of all backgrounds.
we cannot give expert testimony for a bunion??? we are supposed to be the LE experts?! this is a joke. what really is podiatry then?
I’m sure I could find the same thing for psychologists, dentists, etc.
If you are suddenly unhappy then drop out and become a medical assistant or an LPN
And you’re a P2 and you wait till now to do your research? You must be a troll…
someone, what is a troll? I like caddybutt’s posts because they offer researchable information. You just call people trolls. Teslling Stacey to quit is cruel and not helpful. Why dont you make some suggestions to make podiatry better so those of us stuck in it in one stage or another don’t wake up to the realizations that have been pointed out by what I used to think were negative naysayers disgruntled loosers? Merry Christmas Someone Grinch DPM. Maybe you will get flu shot from a merchant with no training. I printed up the caddy’s post and sent it. At least I want to make a statement that our podiatric leaders will consider.
Anon,
I have posted a lot of real research and information on this thread. A lot directed at you. You obviously didn’t read them.
Look. What Stacey posted is only for Pennsylvania and will only affect you if you plan on doing legal work. It doesn’t mean that if an orthopod decides to testify against you, they will win.
A flu shot from someone with no training? Are you dumb?? That’s the pharmacist giving you the flu shot….not some clerk or pharm tech! And they did get training to do it. You should learn to research your “facts” before expressing them.
And a flu shot is bot complicated AT ALL. Podiatrists can’t do it because the Flu isn’t foot and ankle pathology! A podiatrist CAN give an Intramuscular Injection which is the same kind of shot as a flue shot.
It’s funny that all of these “characters” post on this article but not on the SDN Podiatry Forums. Are you scared to express your views on their and get called out by real attending podiatrists with real facts?
Anon,
If you are unhappy with your training then enter the residency match process. Do a 3 yr residency. And get the training to do all foot and ankle surgeries, admit your patients to the hospital, medically manage them when they are there, do invasive procedures not located in the foot and ankle like tibial bone grafts, iliac crest bone grafts, etc.
I know a podiatrist that trained under a plastic surgeon and does peripheral nerve surgery to CURE Diabetic Neuropathy!
Someone-if you really are a P-1, can you please be respectful and answer the questions instead of I said so’s and it is is’ and marginalizing peoples’ opinions based on fact not emotional statement of “trolls”–???
These are “real” facts. Are you listening to the real life pods out there, or are you a student with vast ampounts of working knowledge? in the same boat you are as a P-2, and these posts, research, listening to seasoned people, etc have opened our eyes.
I have gone through year 1 and yes the classes were tough, however, I am starting to realize that i may have been sold a false bill of goods. I was told i was an integral member of the health team, have it in writing too. and that we are physicians. there seems to be lack of respect for podiatrists are real doctors. That is a fact. you saying that podiatry is improving, yes, but for the huge amounts of tuition i do not want to be buying an in progress profession that is still evolving and is not established. podiatrists cannot talk about bunions??? that is fact for PA podiatrists.
this seems to be some misrepresentations or distortions here.that is a fact.
Podiatrics can’t give testimony about BUNIONS in PA court and in VA too, even though the podiatry schools say we are LE experts. This is disturging to say the least especially for all that tuition money. I am a p-2 and i dont know what this troll thing is that you keep referring to?
I also sent the caddy pod letter to our deans. Did you? I will also follow up in 7 days and DEMAND answers. Medical assistants with a 6 mon training can give flu shots yet podiatrist cannot. our schools say we are physicians yet we can’t talk about bunions and cannot use the term physicians in some without board action.
Someone instead of labelling and emotional outbursts, why not suggest usmles, abms, acgme as suggested and calling those podiatric leaders to task? or are you happy as a P-1 listening to positive happy talk and thinking you getting medical shcool training that is not what the majority think–including VA and PA courts. Are you going to forward caddy pod note, or are you content with the way things are–we need major change. i am sick of being a joke or having to defend my career choice. thank you.
“Someone instead of labelling and emotional outbursts, why not suggest usmles, abms, acgme”
Because it’s not going to happen. Instead of switching to the USMLEs we need to reform the NBPME to be on PAR with the USMLE. What’s the point of ABMS? We have the ABPS which is very good at what it does. ACGME? The CPME already pretty much follows what the ACGME does…
“podiatrists cannot talk about bunions??? that is fact for PA podiatrists. “
These are facts for PA podiatrists THAT DO LEGAL WORK.
How many podiatrists out there do expert testimony legal work? Less than 1%.
How many podiatrists are in the position to give flu shots to massive amounts of the population? Very few.
Now…how many podiatrists are fighting for admitting priveleges, foot and ankle privileges across the country? Too many.
My point is…why waste your time on USMLE, ACGME, ABMS (which wont change because of the requirement of “medical students” – which doesnt include podiatry)? Why waste your time on flu shots? Instead work on helping podiatrists fight for hospital privileges. Ankle for the states that don’t have it yet. More 3 year residencies so that the older podiatrists who wish to gain more training can do so?
We have limited resources and we need to fight for what is most important and what is realistic…
“I was told i was an integral member of the health team, have it in writing too. and that we are physicians. there seems to be lack of respect for podiatrists are real doctors.”
How will the ability to give flu shots make Podiatrists an “integral member of the health care team? Please explain.
Podiatrists ARE an integral member of the health care team. Look at the partnership between the Society for Vascular Surgery and the APMA. Google “Society for Vascular Surgery and Podiatry”.
Look at the Diabetic Limb Salvage Conference.
Look up the Georgetown Limb Salvage Team with a Podiatrist, Plastic Surgeon, and Vascular Surgeon.
Caddypod,
Can you formally retract your statement that Store Clerks can give flu shots? Because they can’t.
Stacey,
Can you formally retract your statement that LVN’s and Pharm tech’s can give flu shots? Because they can’t.
If you guys are really for the TRUTH and not just bashing Podiatry then you will oblige.
Thanks.
Same with Medical Assistants.
LVN’s and Med Assistants CANNOT give flu shots by themselves. They work under a Physician.
The person giving you your flu shot at the pharmacy is the Pharmacist. And they are trained to do that.
In my opinion, these are the changes we NEED to see and I believe WILL happen in the next decade.
More emphasis on Medicine in Podiatry School. Too many of my peers do not take the basic sciences and general medicine seriously because they believe they do not need it in practice. The education is there, it is up to the students to seek it out and take it seriously.
3yr FULL foot and reconstructive rearfoot and ankle surgical residency. Approximately 90% of ALL residencies are there…the remaining 10% should convert in the next few years.
Ankle privileges in the handful of states that don’t have them yet. We are very close in New York. I think if we get New York then the rest will likely follow.
Once all of the states have the foot and ankle AND all residencies are 3yr foot and RRA surgical residencies then we need to work on a universal scope of practice.
Throughout this entire time, the APMA needs to help each and every Podiatrist get FAIR hospital privileges (depending on training – 1yr, 2yr, 3yr trained, etc.)
Better Public Relations. The APMA wastes too much time on recommending which socks are best and which shoes are best for grade school students. We need to focus on heel pain, arch pain, ankle pain, nail disorders, trauma, surgical and non-surgical treatments, diabetes, limb salvage, etc. instead.
We (all Podiatrists, Podiatry Students, Podiatry Residents) need to keep educating the public and other health care professionals about what we do and who we are. We are Lower Extremity Experts. We are Physicians of the Foot and Ankle. Show them that our curriculum (atleast the basic sciences) is on par with med students. We need to stay positive!
Stacey and CaddyPod,
Ask yourself this. If other health care professionals read your past statements, will this invoke confidence in our profession? Just look at how your comments have already negatively impacted a few potential Podiatry Students. Read the previous page of comments…I believe there were a couple who decided to not pursue Podiatry because of what YOU ALL have said.
anon=stacey=cadypenis as ever was. These people are the same. its all the caddy punk. The guy is just a podiatry school drop out who is now crying a river in these forms. I highly doubt these fake comments will sway people a way from this profession.
Happy Holidays.
Xmas armistace.
Caddypod as ever was.
This is the only handle I use at this site.
Flu isn’t foot related to foot or ankle pathology?
Try this polemic:
Any condition which impacts the immune system has the potential to have an effect on the lower extremity. Immunologic reaction to viral capsid can not only trigger a cascade of events including but not limited to frank viral infection involving the pulmonary system in turn facilitating a diminution of perfused O2 but make susceptive individuals less capable of combating bacterial infections. Through the cardio pulmonary sytsem, into the bloodstream, a simple flu can reduce an otherwise healthy individual to an immunologically compromised patient whose minor intertriginous macerations could deteriote to an infectious process of the foot.
No. I guess podiatrist don’t really connect the dots in podiatric training
Not that your sole goal in life is to be able to give a flu shot – The ABSOLUTE is that as a DPM you can not. It is arguable and ultimately this issue will see a court docket someday, but for now, DPMs cannot give flu shots. Yes you can inject anything else as it relates to the foot, but then again, every system anomalie can be related to the foot: Cardiac, Pulmonary, GI, GU, Hematologic/Onc, Uro, Neuro. No excuse for not understanding the interrelationships of organ systems. Many higher primates can be trained to perform rote mechanical procedures. But can that primate understand the reactions and interactions?
In most states anyone can give a flu shot. The connondrum is that DPMs, as are other providers regulated by their state boards cannot. Do a fact check on your state law and get back to us.
Actually you can do anything you want as long as you don’t get caught. I don’t care to get personal, but; giving flu shots wasn’t/isn’t worth the time. It is the principle that DPMs are discriminated against. Like I said again and again, go for the USMLE, go for the core clerkships – make what you are doing better, don’t just quit.
Whoever insists on waging personal insults speculating as to my motivation exemplifies placing ones emotions before their higher cortical functions – sort of canine Bowser. Put a cork in it. This thread’s about fixing podiatry, not reading the same defensive posts of bozos unwilling to accept that they are NOT getting what they are paying for, as in students and residents. Read the podiatry arena post by dropatoeor2 `The State of DPMetery 2008′ What’s changed? Was I wrong. Please tell me. I’d like to hear from those who’ve embarked on a life in the mainstream if it is all you dreamed, defended, screamed that it would be. Then go back to 1998, 99 on the almost uncensored site. Look at Podiatry Bytes – then tell us all what has really changed.
Read about the podiatrists with outrageous student loans who sued their podiatry schools and respective financial aide experts for purporting that they would ALWAYS get good jobs as podiatrists in podiatry private practice or in the publich health system. I believe some cases went to trial and the plaintiff DPM prevailed.
To the person who questioned if I graduated podiatry school: Why else would I be posting here?
Like I said in the past, I graduated DPM school and kept going as a continuation of my general education. I work in a different industry but use my podiatry experience as an exercise of sorts in expressing coceptual paradigms and complex systems. “Fixing” podiatry is a challenge and hobby where curious, as in odd intellects congeal and express themselves. Often some folks lash out and call names. A sort of internet road rage.
Caddypod as ever was who is not Stacey or ANON or anyone else because the particular branding of the Caddypod as ever was is like a bookmark for me that I can reference to if I don’t recall what I noted or where. A few years back some clown used my login/handle, caddypod to taunt and stalk. It was a hassle because what I had to say ticked off someone who decided to use my screen name. It got hairy when the stalking started – Keep in mind that ISP addresses are not that hard to come upon before getting too whacky. If you push too far you can add legal fees to your student loans. There are internet crimes and with enforcement and all, as well as theft of intellectual property, a hastily rattled off post could get pricey. I think that a standard question for anyone on any application, be it for a residency, hospital privelages, license renewals and so on, goes something like this: “Have you ever been charged (convicted) of a felony?”
Life’s a bitch, so think before you post, the internet has no erase button.
Caddpod as ever was
The flu shot affects the bodies adaptive immunity…systemic.
I’m still waiting for you to retract your statement about store clerks giving flu shots…
Just wondering, what medical specialty do you practice?
Store clerks in some states DO give flu shots. I ain`t sh87tin’ you. Its the state boards and members who decide what is or what is not in the scope of prcactice laws.
If your livelihood and potential liabilities regarding violations of board rules and regs. deviates, you have to answer to them.
If one has no state board, he/she can do as they please. Many drug store chains and grocery stores allow whoever can demonstrate the mechanical ability to inject will do so. The issue really is one of board authority and rulemaking and accountability. Like I said, if you are employed at a store and they offer flu shots – you do it. These employees are ones with no accountability, fees, rules, authorities. At best they could liable for practicing medicine without a license, but they really are not holding themselves out to be practicing or diagnosing or treating. They just jab and plung…next. The problem arises when they seek permission from the board(s). The boards exist to protect the public (so they say) the stores offering flu shots don’t anwer to the boards. It is a political paradox. Reflect upon the details required to perform some new or novel podiatric procedrue as in an endarterectomy, or laser ablation. A podiatrist would need to file for a declaratory statement to be presented by an administrative law attorney, be reviewed by board appointed specialists (operative term here because these are political appointments in most states-not particularly a meritocracy) and a waiting period. Months, perhaps years pass and board members debate and finally the declaratory statement is responded to. Keep in mind the board’s tyranny can be beneficial – or cost you serious coinage. Flu shots. Yep, there are those in some states who go out of their way to keep DPMs from giving them. This is the way it is in some states. In the world as some of us know it, the rules say an MD or DO must be available – the operative term is available – Joe Schmoe MD or DO can be fifty miles away, but; available nonetheless. Once the gist of things sinks in, that the world is not black and white but a tremendous gray area, it falls into place. The enforcement and penalties range from a wrist slap to a harder wrist slap by John Q Law for flu shot injections by clerks to revokation of a license for a dentist or podiatrist performing the same procedure and maybe some criminal sanctions. There are far greater transgressions which are of a greater threat to society (unlicensed plastic surgery, botox hacks, pill mills, out and out fraud, hack surgeons crippling and killing people and my favorite, the block jocks – anesthesiologists pushing epidurals, rhizotomies and facet blocks knicking the artery of adamkewicz) thus the allocation of enforcement is duly applied.
I can offer a partial retraction on a state by state basis. OK? Maybe we can move on to hastening the incremental changes podiatry as whole requires and not have to bicker about who says what to who. I can only spend so much time on this project.
Caddypod as ever was
Have a good XMas someone. Like I said in the past it’d be nice if I could advise one of my kids to do podiatry, but; it just isn’t there yet.
someone,
I am in another industry since the mid 90s.
I trained in general surgery and because I had podiatry did foot ankle and leg surgery – lots of it. Because of my background – in the 80s it was unusual for DPMs to have gone to med school and was on staff at teaching hospital whre I trained in dept of Family Medicine – also had a few multi-specialty clinics in major metropolitan area -that was a long time ago. I practiced until the mid 90s. Call it a mid-life career move. I am in another industry and have done OK – it’s fun and took nearly a decade to break into – but that’s another story altogether and outside the scope of this forum on Podiatry.
Incidentally:
After all the BS on the various threads, there really isn’t much looking down at podiatry or snarky comments in the surgeon’s lounge. That’s been used as an expository device to get the attention of the reader (student or resident at that maleable point in their career facilitating a curiousity and pause for self-examination and circuitous means to make for changes long overdue.
Believe it or not- nobody cares what degree you have if you’re competent, except of course, the politcos and other podiatrists. The BS I’ve spewed is/was largely hyperbole – nobody really gives a damn about the letters after your name except yourself. Everyone is caught up in their own lives, their families, their health, money, relationships and their own work.
Gotta go,
Cheers,
Caddypod as ever was
again Good Holidays to ALL
- Okay, so I rarely participate on this part of the SDN site. However, after following this thread for the last couple of days it it is very interesting to see the very polarized ( + & – ) opinions expressed about Podiatry.
- I will start Podiatry school next year at – Class of 2015. At the moment, I am still looking forward to starting this journey. After reading the negative comments from “CaddyPod” “Stacey” “Anon” and whoever else I can say that I am still looking forward to pursuing Podiatry. Why? Because I have learned that in EVERY profession there are people who hate what they do and regret their choice, but I also found a common theme among these types of people. They are all extremely lazy, have horrible work ethic, no drive to succeed, poor attitude, etc., the list goes on and I know this personally through my interaction with them. Now did I only find them in Podiatry? Nope. Why? Because it does not matter what profession you are in if you are this type of person then you are DOOMED to fail. Period.
For those who pursued “continuing education” to get an MD/DO/work in another field or whatever or for those who are currently a Pod student, resident, whatever and are unhappy the only thing I can say is who fault is that? Nobody’s but your OWN. If you don’t want to be in Podiatry there is only one clear message… GET THE H*LL OUT! IT IS THAT SIMPLE. I don’t feel sorry for these people one bit at all. Well they preached this, said this, sold me that, are you serious??? DO YOUR RESEARCH MAKE SURE THIS SOMETHING YOU CAN SEE YOURSELF DOING THE REST OF YOUR LIFE IF NOT THAN DON’T APPLY. IF YOU DON’T WANT TO TREAT FEET/ANKLE THEN DON’T GO INTO PODIATRY! This is not a novel concept. I didn’t get residency now I am screwed, well yes maybe you are, but I can guarantee other people got a residency the same year you graduated. So who’s fault is that??? NOBODY’S BUT YOUR OWN. I think you guys can the dots here…
I really feel like this part of my post is comical because it shows that either you didn’t want to be in the profession in the first place or you didn’t do your proper research. Last time I checked all the podiatry students are mid 20s+ aka ADULTS and if they can’t make the correct decision for themselves about a career choice then again that is nobody’s fault BUT THEIR OWN. I don’t care what credentials you have. I don’t want naysayers, haters, or people who can’t man up surrounded by me and from my personal view I surely don’t want them anywhere near me or my profession that I will be starting next year.
Also, is Podiatry perfect? No way, and far from it. But I see an “opportunity” and for me that is all that matters. Which most people would DREAM to be able to have a chance at a medical profession. I want to be involved and I want to be a student delegate that goes to Washington and expresses the concerns from students/residents/current and past podiatrist have. If you want change and if you want to give a “flu shot” as part of your scope then stop whining or whatever then GET OFF YOUR *SS and do something about it. Stop whining and be proactive. Nobody is going to listen to you on this anonymous SDN forum preaching about change this change that USMLE > NBPSMDFASEOIAJEFA who really gives a sh*t. I think people preaching on here get laughed at more than anything else. You need to be physically/vocally active on this type of change. Nothing happens overnight. This will take time and I think overall if we have more proactive/less cry babies/internet preachers then we can and will see results.
Sorry, this was a pretty big rant but I’d rather focus on how we can be progressive with our actions and build upon what we already have. *Life is what you make it* and this is no different.
Allow me to interject a few points just to keep things in perspective :
First, a great big thank you and congratulations to “someone” who is continues to make a huge effort to state the real facts about our exciting profession. (Someone, it can get very tiring and frustrating arguing with people on forums like this, please do not let it get to you or dampen your spirits or affect your enthusiasm. That would be a shame.)
Someone is correct about what the real, big issues are in our field, and what most of our attention should be focused on. The things caddy pod keeps referencing our also important and would be nice to achieve… I do hope that we have achieved these ideas within the next decade and hopefully sooner.
Clearly the whole debate about flu shots or expert opinions in PA courts and so on, are issues which are more about principal than practicality. It would be ni ce to gain victories in those ares “just because”, and it is annoying and kind of hurts our egos perhaps, but the reality is that our daily practices will change little if any regardless of the status of those issues.
Whether caddy would recommend Podiatry to his children is also not that important. To each his own. I mean no disrespect by that caddy. Just saying. As you have stated, nobody cares what your initials our as long as you are competent, and as you also stated, you can easily make several hundred thousand a year in this field… so if that’s not good enough for you to recommend to a child then that’s fine, but its clearly one mans expectations and one mans opinion. Again, I do not mean to disrespect your opinion at all.
Podiatrists are the premier foot and ankle surgeons. 95% or orthos, even the ones that dabble in foot and ankle, can not do what we can do. There are experts yes, but most can not.
Podiatry is an awesome field as it is right now. The things being debated on this forum are tidbits which I do hope we can make progress with, but the field is incredible right now. As it is.
Merry christmas someone. And caddy, merry christmas to you too sir.
I think you two agree on 99% of you say, you just don’t realize it… and sometimes caddy has a way of stating things in a manner which seems condescending… I think that’s his way of trying to make us think
By the way someone… you were right on about Podiatry students and general medicine classes and rotations. You will find in your second and third years that the pathology and medicine notes are very comprehensive and if you put in effort to remember the material even after the exam you’ll have a pretty dang good handle on systemic stuff. It takes constant review though, and since we have so much Podiatry related stuff to constantly learn and master, its tough. But it is doable. Most students do tend to forget a lot of it since its not practical day to day knowledge for us necessarily, but im on the side that encourages constant review. There’s an absolutely enormous amount of info as you can imagine, but as a student is the time to go over and over and over it as much as you can, while you still have time to focus on general stuff.
I love medicine in general. Every specialty fascinates me. I think I could have an intelligent discussion with any doctor about pathology in their specialty. But its taken a lot of work. You are right- the material is all presented in pod med school its hp to each individual student to decide how much they wanna know. Of course this is the same doe Md and DO. I spoke with a 60 year old ER doc recently who said he was never really confident with endocrinology until recently
Podiatry school and medical school don’t really teach you. You teach yourself
Using their resources.
By the way im not lecturing you or just talking to you. Im just on my soap box
Okay, I would like to say that LovePodiatry explained his/her opinion in a much more calm way than I did. I would just like to state that my post was not aimed at any specific individual. I also think my post had frustration in it, which could have been substituted with a calmer tone. I have just been reading a lot about people I felt did a lot more “complaining” and how they wish this wish that without making more progressive actions to earn what they wish for. It is always easier to sit back complain and point fingers than actually step up and do something about – which I personally have been at fault for in the past just like everybody else. I just think we should focus our attention with realistic goals. If anybody feels disrespected from my post I apologize.
“Store clerks in some states DO give flu shots. I ain`t sh87tin’ you. Its the state boards and members who decide what is or what is not in the scope of prcactice laws.”
-I did not know that. Even if a flu shot is simple…it’s unbelievable that some states allow that. I was just going off of what I knew from my state.
“Believe it or not- nobody cares what degree you have if you’re competent, except of course, the politcos and other podiatrists.”
-That’s what I’ve heard from several sources. People just care if you can do your job or not.
I think the past couple of posts by caddypod, lovepodiatry, and outside observer have pretty much summed up everything that’s been talked about on this thread. Props to all of you.
Happy holidays!
Check out DrSubotnick.com. This fellow was a renowned podiatrist for runners who integrated the scope of chiropractic into his practice.
I bought his book: The Running Foot Doctor many years ago. Pretty good if you’re a runner or someone who treats runners.
Take a look at the almost uncensored podiatry forum site the post called the secret handshake is pretty worth reading it is funny and probably true.
were the authors of these little vignettes doing ‘shrooms or something? I think they may have gotten a bad batch…
still waiting from the dean to answer the questions. will get back with everyone. thanks.
Read the BUSPM magazine MEDexpress winter 2011 edition. 9 Podiatry schools, 1000 applicants and in 2010 there were 53 graduates. The new dean was interviewed. BUSPM also offers a PA program. Why not offer a PA degree so podiatrists can get jobs while they are building their practices? I do not think every 3 year residency grad gets a high paying job. Where will the patients with insurance come from?
I read this on the website. 1000 applicants for 9 schools? some were probably applying elsewhere also. That seems pretty low. 111 applicants per school in theory and they have @60-100 people per class?
1000 applicants is the most applicants in 10 years.
still seems like low amount applicants and selectivity needs to be much greater. who are they rejecting with only 111 applicants per school.
ZdoggMD the videos at Youtube are excellent, amusing and you will laugh out loud !!!
Some funny stuff.
I just read an email from PMnews. Dr. Brian D. Lepow and Dr. Gary M. Lepow teamed up with panasonic to shoot the first surgeons to shoot a 3D surgery video. This will become a great teaching aid.
Dr. Brian D. Lepow and Dr. Gary M. Lepow are both Podiatrists.
But can they login to Sermo? Can they join AAPS.org? Can they sit for USMLE?
big deal they get to make a movie/clip to sell panasonic products. Get real podiatry has nt advanced much this decade at all. For crying out loud, look at the posts on the uncensored podiatry forum site going back 10 years and more it is all the same hooey. Nor jobs for DPMs it is all private practice and for the hand full of podiatrists who get jobs at orthopedica groups whoopee. DPMs working for other DPMs get fleeced out of sixty percent of what the DPM successs bills out and they go out on their own to get started. Try getting a loan with that 3 year residency in a state that don’t recognize your skills and you end up begging the student loan people to defer.
No change except better educated students who choose not to go to podiatry for their degree a useless outside of podiatry title at that. I was lied to. I am not going to be a lacky for some hotshot DPM who wants to sell me a practice that isn’t generating money because patients for podiatrists go elsewhere. DPM education+residencey = biggest career choice error of lifetime.
ortho groups—few and far b/w. look at texas.
most relegated to forefoot, nursing wound care, not major academic med groups.. the rest are in the inherently flawed solo private practice. then the practicing pod gets some desparado fresh from residency, heavy debt. they sign them on as a 1099, and the wheel starts a spinning.
If it is the biggest career choice error of a lifetime then why does forbes rank it in the top 15 jobs year after year?
“Patients for podiatrists go elsewhere”… what kind of vague nonsensical statement is this?
Frustrated, major hospitals sign podiatrists all the time. I suggest you nine your skills and get a better job.
” I was lied to.”… this is the biggest and most annoying crybaby excuse ever. If you feel tricked or lied to then you need to look in the mirror at who really needs to wise up
Frustrated,
I post real tangible things that podiatrists are doing and you bring up “But can they login to Sermo? Can they join AAPS.org? Can they sit for USMLE?”
You bring up something that would NOT affect a podiatrist day to day. Patients have no idea nor do they care about the USMLE, ABMS, AAPS, Sermo! They want to know if you can help them and if you are good at it.
Jim,
Most podiatrists in my area work in orthopedic groups, podiatry groups, multispecialty groups, huge hospital groups, etc. as well as solo practice.
“they sign them on as a 1099, and the wheel starts a spinning.”
What do you mean by this? Physicians are always signed on as 1099 independent contractors…
I’ve read some posts on the podiatry uncensored website and that thing is a joke. A bunch of incoherent babble. You all should start posting on the SDN podiatry forums. There are a lot of students, residents, and attendings that post on there.
Jim,
That last (12/31) post was excellent.
Eloquent, polished and poigniant. The post should be required reading for anyone who’s ever posted here or participated in a podiatric back slapathon.
The narrative covers the breadth and depth of the most salient issues posted on this board.
I doubt if any of the mainstream sites would publish the material. The truth is an agonizing wallop shattering the chymera generated by the ramshackle podiatric jalopy chugging down the pike.
Happy New Year
Respectfully,
Caddypod as ever was, D.P.M., M.D.
PS: Your writing style suggests you know the secret handshake.
Call me naive but my definition of “earning respect” is making the NBPME, ABPS, CPME on par with the USMLE, ABMS, ACGME. I will study my butt off and do what I need to do to provide the best foot and ankle care for my patients.
1099 is not unique to podiatry and it is not necessarily a bad thing. There are pros and cons. There ARE a lot of physicians that are independent contractors.
BTW, what specialty do you practice? I ask because you mentioned some mumbo jumbo about podiatrists not knowing the compliment system…which is basic 1st year stuff. I’m just surprised that you would mention something as simple as that.
A 1099 is bad because you have to file your own taxes?? What about private practice plastics or derm? What about the partners/owners of physician groups? They don’t have to file their own taxes? Give me a break!
Caddypod,
You mention that no “mainstream sites” post that sort of information. Why don’t you take it upon yourself to post it on the SDN podiatry forums?
And I can’t believe that the two most negative people on here are not even in the profession! Two MDs are saying how bad the podiatry job market is, crying about the descrimination they experience, etc. YOU GUYS ARE NOT IN THE PROFESSION ANYMORE SO HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?
Jim stated previously he was a former residency director with 20 years experience, now says he practiced for 7 years. Weird.
Caddypod previously admitted to having many names on here, hoping that we would “get it”, then later contradicts that by saying he only uses one name.
Now everyone that bashes Podiatry on here claims to have an MD degree, while oddly enough still find time to bash in post after post?
These anonymous forums are both manipulative and confusing.
Someone,
Is that supposed to be a `gotcha’ moment sort of post?
This is what is:
I got kicked off the SDN years ago.
There is a difference between negative and using your experience to help others along.
How would I know? Because, Someone, I am that good. I can follow several sports teams at once, I can follow lots and lots of movies and books, I follow molecular biology, astrophysics and fractal geometry. I can follow current events and all sorts of things, but; guess what? I’ve got some skin in this game.
I keep up with a lot of things I am not directly involved in – that certainly does not diminish the acquity of my posts or the intentions therein. Because I have a DPM and paid for it and see the obscene brainwashing that you guys get I am compelled to educate. I am not getting paid for these posts, try considering the fact that some folks give a crap enough to educate you of not just things as they are, but; of things to come unless changes are made.
Respctfully
Have a Happy New Years, go out and forget about it for a while. Eventually you’ll see things in a different light.
Respectfully,
Caddypod as ever was (no degrees for this character)
To all Happy Healthy New Year and Decade. I’m on your side you just don’t know it yet.
Caddypod as ever was
I appreciate constructive criticism. But when criticism is outdated or plainly inaccurate, then I must speak up.
I take anatomy side by side with MD students and I know for a fact that we learn the same things in biochem, physiology, and histology (so far). A lot of things come up where we must discuss other basic science topics as it relates to anatomy and I am always right there with them. I know that many of you have conceded that the basic sciences are on par with MD students but I still feel the need to point it out. It’s one of many false/outdated “criticisms” that many on here have brought up.
“secret handshake”
Is that code for an MD only club? News flash. The APMA and SVS (Society for Vascular Surgery) formed a partnership last year and has since been publishing combined research articles in both the JAPMA and J Vasc (Journal of Vascular Surgery). Throughout the nation there are Podiatrists and Vascular Surgeons who have teamed up to combat the diabetic foot.
A reasonable suspension of disbelief is required when entering these anonyous sites. Many of the things written are done so in a distinct voice which the reader can easily discern. Questioning the veracity of the man behind the mask’s identity is irrelevant, the material experssed thereof, can be either be useful or discarded.
The futility of quesioning expressed bonafides is irrelevent.
Podiatry’s place in society is a compelling, ongoing polemic. Emotions run high for those vested in the field – trapped, if you will – by circumstance and commitment.
These posts have offered some genuinely useful information. Do with it what you will, however trying to figure out who said what, when and/or to whom is wasteful. Name-calling of the posting people isn’t amusing, productive or funny.
The Jim post of 12/31 pretty much stated inforation that, in the right mindset, could be provocative and educational. Once you remove your passion from the argument a certain degree of logic will settle in and a degre of mindfullness will ensue.
Caddypod as ever was
“EARNED MD from a USA school 4 years, with USMLES I-III, not the 24 month United Kingdom academic MD “degree” nonsense.”
-You mention later below that Podiatry is opportunistic and unnecessary. You use the fact that people in other countries are not dying/rioting without podiatry. Well the rest of the world does not have USMLE, ABMS, ACGME, etc. and they are not rioting. The UK has the “academic MD degree nonsense” and they aren’t dying/rioting.
“USMLEs, ABMS, ACGME, DO matter. This IS recoginized in medical circles that define your training, scope, skill, grants, professional attainment, etc…”
-Again, this is only in america. The rest of the world does not do this and they are fine. It’s called PARITY and that does not require Podiatrists to take the same thing as MDs. The DOs don’t take the USMLE. They don’t work under the ACGME. They have a lot of different specialty boards because the MDs won’t let them in if they did a DO residency. What do you say about that?
“Please go to the AOFAS website and see their podiatry statement. The blueprint for equality–not PR rhetoric or grandiose spewing of podiatrics deans, pollys, and cronies.”
-Why don’t you also read what Mike Pinzur, MD’s research article about Foot and Ankle education in General Orthopedic Residency. He actually states in the article that Podiatrists have much BETTER and more STANDARDIZED foot and ankle education than the orthopedists.
“All physicians do NOT sign 1099s, that is deadly,. you have NO employment rights, nothing. just like hiring a plumber at your condo. You also must file/pay your own taxes. The docs we work with all file W-2s b/c they are full time hospital employees, med group, or academic”
-If you work for a hospital, you WILL sign 1099s. If you work for a group as an associate then you won’t. If you open up a Private Practice that many Plastics, Derms do then you will no employment rights and file your own taxes. If you are partner in a physician group then you will have to do the same.
“Pods are self employed soloers in an inherently flawed business model. Similar to MD/DOs who still chose to be not very business savvy and do the solo shuttle and then burn out in their 50s.-nice huh? Docs are some of the most ignorant when it comes to business savvy, many are idealistic, and think urinating in the ocean will help save the day.”
-Dentists are soloers and they do a very good job with it. Read around…the MDs are jealous of the autonomy and money that Dentists make in solo practice…
“Are they rioting in the streets of Germany for DPMs, in Korea, or Australia, Switzerland, France, Italy, UK, etc….No they are not. Because podiatrics/chiropodists/podology, podiatricians, can be easily replaced and performed by others on the ancillary staff, like it or not—podiatrists/DPMS are opportunists.”
-Let me ask you a question. Why is it that modern medicine is ALL about SPECIALIZING? What about all the specialties that exist in America that don’t exist elsewhere? ER is one example. It came up in the 1980′s and used to be the jobs of PCPs. They don’t exist in many countries outside of the US.
“Some think it is a Doctor Physical Medicine PT type thing, or a hygenic degree.”
-I have never heard this. Everyone I’ve talked to who ask what I do, I tell them I am in Podiatry School. And they say…”oh you do feet. That’s nice.” The general public knows that Podiatrists do feet. The problem is that many think we are non surgical and/or don’t do the ankle.
“I can think of very few people who are truly using their DPM degree FT outside of clinical podiatry”
-And what does this say about Podiatry? Podiatry is a CLINICAL DEGREE! How is having few opportunities outside of clinical podiatry relevant when talking about Podiatry?
“the rest are barely treading water-bunions, fasciitis, socks, shoes, and giving the diabetic foot attack talk, or selling orthotics and other biomechanical nonsense to the naive/ignorant to make a buck, others have left it completely and have opened pet stores, landscaping, or opening a food franchise–NO JOKE.”
-I have met many Podiatrists and most of them are very successful. Despite your opinion, bunions, fasciitis, socks, shoes, diabetic feet…these are ALL MEDICALLY RELEVANT. I don’t understand why a lot of pissed of former podiatrists always point to these problems when these are LEGIT medical problems. You don’t hear Dermatologists pissed off that they have to deal with Moles and Rashes day in and day out.
“That is not medicine.”
-WRONG. This is REAL medicine. REAL MEDICINE is dirty and you do things that are not glamorous. Dermatologists deal with ugly moles, infectious/gross looking rashes. They do full body scans of people peeling back their butt cracks looking for Melanoma. Not fun. Emergency Medicine have to deal with Alcoholics and Drug Addicts. Is providing an Alcoholic a night to stay (essentially baby sitting them), medicine? What about when drug addicts try and trick you into writing them a prescription? These are daily FACTS that other medical specialties have to deal with that isn’t glamorous either.
Please respond back. I have ripped apart too many of your posts without a response that it is getting ridiculous.
someone,
Let it go.
Real is a relative term with respect to this polemic. The fact remains that there are 50 state boards with 50 scopes of practice. None of which include the full body for podiatrists,
The privelage to diagnose and treat the entire human body is not granted to DPMs at this time. That privelage is earned. Yes there are some rather horrid conditions afflicting humankind.
It is an earned privelage to examine full body `butt cracks ugly moles’ and all. It is not supposed to be fun, it is a privelage and responsibility. There are alcoholics and drug addicts with multiple anomalies who do need attention if your point of view is that they require `baby sitting’ you have been seriously misrepresnted. Drug addicts trickery are not endmic to medicine, all holders of DEA registration are in that boat. This is not about glamour.
Not glamour at all, it is about a privelage afforded to those whom the governing authorities deem suitable to address those issues with a modicum of resect and decorum. Your post suggests that you somehow place podiatrists/podiatry elsewhere. That does not bode well for any of the healing arts as all people regardless of their condition come to you with a reasonable expectation that you have the maturity and ability to minister to these things without judgement and afford the same respect be it the downtrodden to the most affluent. Your mockery indicates a level of maturity yet to be achieved.
I certainly hope that your impassioned rhetoric does not reflect the limited scope of practice podiatry will afford you, then again you might not be deserving of a license in the healing arts at all if you truly look upon human ailments as childishly as you suggest.
Your post was probably hastily written and you might be grateful that it is anonymous because that sort of blithe, contentous perspective is not at all acceptable of any professional. Even if your scope limits you to the foot.
If indeed you are uncomfortable with manifesations of the human condition
it would behoove you to rethink your career choice. To surmise that the human body does not deserve respect, none will or should be afforded you.
Consider a loved one with a suspicious lesion in their `butt crack’ – what if it was your wife or your mother? Is your fall back going to be, I’m just a podiatrist and can’t look at it: “Ewww.”
Not particularly part of a full court press toward parity is it?
Despite my usual and ordinary level of mischchievous comments, mocking the human body and human disease is hardly one at all. On the other hand:
You fucking idiot bastard get the hell out of here – anyone who mocks sick people doesn’t belong in medicine in ANY capacity!!! Shitbird.
I can read why you don’t quite get it – you’re a damned moron – Nobody ever said being a doc is FUN look elsewhere.
Caddypod as ever was
Round 1 Results
Someone 1
Caddypod 0
I never mocked the human body or any sick people. If you READ and UNDERSTAND what I wrote then you will see that I was merely showing you that medicine is not clean or glamorous. Jim wrote…
“the rest are barely treading water-bunions, fasciitis, socks, shoes, and giving the diabetic foot attack talk, or selling orthotics and other biomechanical nonsense to the naive/ignorant to make a buck”
…and you supported his statements, twice. In fact, Jim was the one who mocked the human body and sick people by dismissing actual REAL medical problems as “biomechanical nonsense”…and you supported him.
“Consider a loved one with a suspicious lesion in their `butt crack’ – what if it was your wife or your mother? Is your fall back going to be, I’m just a podiatrist and can’t look at it: “Ewww.””
-I would say, “would you mind if I take a look at it?” then if I was at all suspicious then I would tell them to see a dermatologist.
The foot and ankle have skin as well and I have heard stories of Podiatrists catching melanomas and referring to a dermatologist. Melanoma isn’t the most difficult thing to “look at”.
A = Asymmetry
B = Border
C = Color
D = Diameter
E = Evolving
And yes…I did learn this in my first 4 months of Podiatry School.
I would also ask them for any history or family history of Melanoma. If they say yes then I would tell them to visit a dermatologist regardless of my suspicions to have a full body scan.
Wow, well done someone. I truly applaud you for your adequate response to their laughable rhetoric. To the contrary of the nature of my previous post, I think you as podiatry student “Get it”. I believe you have every right to defend these ignorant accusations about a profession that can be very rewarding if you work hard and be the best you can be for your patients.
For CaddyPod and Jim
Why did you become a DPM and then go to MD school?
Why did you NOT JUST BECOME AN MD IN THE FIRST PLACE?
If you want to be a MD go to medical school.
If you want to be a DPM go to Podiatry school.
I don’t want to be a MD so I didn’t choose to go medical school.
I want to be a DPM so I am going to Podiatry school.
Is this really that hard to understand…???
I wanted to be a rock star but it didn’t work out. So I sold a few paintings, wrote a few books and wanted to find out how my body worked. I applied and got rejected from Med school first go-around and my wife had an uncle at the time, who turned me on to podiatry: I took the draw the foot on the matchbook cover test, demonstrated my ability to breathe and showed up. Next thing you know, I am a D P M. it just wasn’t enough for me.
Podiatry school introduced me to medicine. It was like having a glimpse but not quite being a part of what I had come to know from my friends in med school and as a graduate student (I got a master’s degree and was in a PhD program). Podiatry seemed at the time a viable way to learn medicine and strike out on my own. They said it was a great field. That was in the late seventies. So I went on to med school.
And yes Martha, I did work as caddy.
Jack Welsh did too. He describes his experience as one that taught him patience and humility.
Wait a second, you aren’t Martha and I’m an A-hole (reference to Denis Leary’s tomay to A-holedom).
So do whatever you want. I have an insatiable apetite for the bizarre and obscene as well as knowledge, improbable and grotesque mischief and enjoying life.
I wear size 10 1/2 shoes six foot tall full head of hair two kids and live a modest lifestyle. I don’t introduce myself as doctor because most folks recognize me from my work and that’s just fine with me. I did end up in a rock star sort of zone after anyway.
So if you want to send me a nifty pair of shoes you’ve got my size. Hang back on sizing me up and consider the Bruce Lee quote no matter what you do: Stay alert, stay alive, stay invisible.
As open minded as I’d like to be it’d take a whole lot of convincing to make me equate podiatry school with medical school. Now that I’m older and probably not as wise as I should be – I’ve had a lot of fun on these posts, why? Because you’ve taken a concept and ran with it, all the passion all the arguements, some compelling others less, but; at the end of the day, there’s a whole lot of conflict. And conflict makes for drama and that, posters is what makes for good entertainment,
Thanks
Caddypod as ever was.
For CaddyPod and Jim
Why did you become a DPM and then go to MD school?
Why did you NOT JUST BECOME AN MD IN THE FIRST PLACE?
I don’t want to be a MD so I didn’t choose to go medical school.
I want to be a DPM so I am going to Podiatry school.
Is this really that hard to understand…???
Caddypod Response:
“I applied and got rejected from Med school first go-around”
“Next thing you know, I am a D P M. it just wasn’t enough for me.”
Bingo.
Hopefully other prospective students read this and will learn from your mistake. Thank you for your response.
round 2 results
Someone 2
Caddy 0
CaddyPod and Jim have valid arguements, which are supported by many others, websites, podiatry info, and speaking with other doctors. Someone’s numerous messages and P-1 passion is predictable and questionable.
I am in podiatry P-2, yet, I can hold my own and have a debate–balanced. I am not defensive, or emotional about a foot. It is a future potential job. Period. A future potential job. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters are outside experiences outside the job. and please do not tell me the love of the foot, the medicien, the hand holding in midnight, medicine is business and business is medicine. Who is going to pay for your insurance, your lights, your license,etc…foot is a job.
And if I do not get anwers from the dean, i may leave podiatry. As I said before, this profession is not what it appears to be, no matter how much defensive posturings, deflection, personal insults, no answering, knee-jerk outburst,…
dentists have a niche, podiatrists do not, and the admission standards are pretty low. Yes, we treat feet (ankles in 44), but does the public/medical peeps know what a dpm is?
Many can do our job, that is the challenge. I read the podiatry literature, and it does state, that we are an intergral members of the health care team and that baby boomers are aging, and that many, many, podaitrists will be needed to treat the elderly. I do not know about that, the way medicine is going. especially the source of the info.
Someone and I are indeed financial vested in podiatry school. Maybe, is why she/he is very emotional to podiatry. Me to. But a foot, does not make me send tons of amounts of messges Much ado about nothing. Were talking a foot.
Perhaps, time better served writing a research article, or applying for a grant.
There needs to be balance, similar to chiropractic literature, most of it is over optimistic because they get there info from the chiropractic organizations similar to podiatry. There are to many boards, and subdivisions of podiatry, podiatry needs uniformity, and proactive leaders, right now it is like a rudderless ship.
Foot biomechanics nonsense–I agree with that, much of it is hooey. Ground reactive forces, offloading the arch, I took the course, it is a joke, and a sales pitch, come one. and expensive orthotics that are not medical devices, yet OTC works just fine.
I will let everyone know when i hear back from the dean, and he better not answer like the podiatry bytes admissions interview.
I heard back from the Dean he said the following,
Stacy,
Please do not worry about the future of podiatry. Instead, you should worry about your future. You are currently failing half of your classes.
cheers,
Dean
could you please provide your reference?
Stacey,
Bunions, diabetic feet are biomechanics nonsense? Did you read what Jim posted?
And you bring up redundancy. Well I got news for you, medicine has a lot of redundancy. An MD can do everything a DO can. An ortho spine surgeon and a neurosurgeon both do spinal surgery. Ortho hand and plastics both can specialize in hands. Interventional cardiology, interventional radiology, and vascular surgery all do vascular procedures. All specialties can interpret their own imaging without the radiologist. PCP can do ER. ER can do PCP. FM can do gynecology. FM can do peds. Non surgical Ortho does pretty much the same thing as PM&R. Vascular surgeons, cardiothoracic surgeons, etc can all do general surgery. ENT competes with facial plastics and OMFS. Facial plastics competes with ophthalmologists (occulo
All I have ever done is post facts but it is hard not to get frustrated when people don’t read or have trouble with comprehension. It’s obvious from posters like outside observer, unbiased ref, and lovepodiatry that there are people out there that do “get it”.
Stacey,
Bunions, diabetic feet are biomechanics nonsense? Did you read what Jim posted?
And you bring up redundancy. Well I got news for you, medicine has a lot of redundancy. An MD can do everything a DO can. An ortho spine surgeon and a neurosurgeon both do spinal surgery. Ortho hand and plastics both can specialize in hands. Interventional cardiology, interventional radiology, and vascular surgery all do vascular procedures. All specialties can interpret their own imaging without the radiologist. PCP can do ER. ER can do PCP. FM can do gynecology. FM can do peds. Non surgical Ortho does pretty much the same thing as PM&R. Vascular surgeons, cardiothoracic surgeons, etc can all do general surgery. ENT competes with facial plastics and OMFS. Facial plastics competes with ophthalmologists (occulo plastics). The list goes on and on. There are plenty of turf wars in medicine.
All I have ever done is post facts but it is hard not to get frustrated when people don’t read or have trouble with comprehension. It’s obvious from posters like outside observer, unbiased ref, and lovepodiatry that there are people out there that do “get it”.
Stacey:
I respect your opinion, it sounds very reasonable. But I still don’t understand why you are questioning a profession that you applied to.
Do you fall under the category of Caddypod? (see my previous post)
Yes, I can also understand that maybe you don’t know how it REALLY is until you are actually in the school, but I still find it very surprising that you are having these thoughts after a year of being in podiatry school.
If you are really failing your classes, like your dean has stated with your previous post then he might have a valid point if it is true. This point could also be contributing to your attitude towards podiatry.
I am sure if you continue and get into the clinical years of your schooling you will maybe see why you got into the profession in the first place – which could boost your attitude.
“And if I do not get anwers from the dean, i may leave podiatry.”
Maybe the truth already came out.
Halelujah.
I have been reading these posts and will share with you a solution to ALL of your problems.
I am a DPM who obtained a Doctorate of Divinity online. This ministerial credential allows me to give spiritual guidance to all. If there is a scope of practice issue I can offer advice and listen to the problems of all. I learned that the confidentiality between doctor and patient sometimes does not exist but if you have a ministerial credential all bets are off. It is a non-denominational credential.
I must be off to give my sermon and pass out my podiatry cards. Bless you all.
DPM, Doctor of Divinity
Again Stacey, very ironic that ALL you focus on is the negative aspects of Podiatry. You do realize that there are Pods that are VERY successful at what they do and make VERY good money. Some don’t some do that is life and you can find that in EVERY PROFESSION. Nobody will be successful in life if ALL you focus on is the bad aspects of a profession. How will that motivate anybody to succeed?
I understand you have questions, but why didn’t you do you research before hand?
I find it very hard to believe that you were all gun-ho about entering podiatry. Then, all of a sudden one day while you are a P-2 ALL of these questions started popping out of nowhere…. If you didn’t do your research then that is your fault. I would not blame the profession on the fact that you can’t make the correct decision on your career choice.
I may be wrong about your situation, but from reading your posts it sound pretty accurate to me.
“If I buy a towel it is supposed to dry me. If it does not. Then we have a problem”
I am sorry Stacey, but please tell me you did not just try to compare a towel and a life long career choice that is much much much x1000 more complex than a “Towel” this argument makes no sense.
“When you buy a house, you get indepdent analysis b/c the party selling you the goods could be giving false info, or biased info, outdated, or overly optimistic talk that is reminscent of chiropractics.”
Again, I agree with your independent analysis argument. So obviously you understand that. How come you didn’t do this before you chose this profession? Did you forget?
“Just like multi-millionaire actors, but the majority of them are performing at B-C level theaters, or waiting tables.”
Stacey you cannot use this example. Because there are a small % of actors that make it big, largely do to luck and connections. Being successful in Podiatry has nothing to do with acting and THERE are a lot of successful podiatrist and the ones that aren’t or are unhappy are the small %. STACEY IT IS CALLED HARD WORK AND BELIEF THAT YOU CAN BE SUCCESSFUL. Not hoping to “catch the big acting role”. You have much more control of your career being a medical professional than someone that is “waiting to catch the big role”.
“After spending this much, and seeing, speaking, and further research, I am not to happy.”
Nobody’s fault but your own. You are an adult and you should have done your research. I have no pity for any individual that doesn’t have the proper understanding to do ALL THE RESEARCH NECESSARY before signing the dotted line. He told me this, they told me that, they promised me this, etc etc all meaningless to me. Make a decision and stick with it, if you made the wrong one, you bite the dust and nobody else. It is called real life and I don’t feel sorry for you one bit.
Good luck with your future endeavors.
“I discroved for health profs were 1.1% chiros, 0.8%pods, 0.5 MDs, dental and vet were bottom. Considering the very small size of podiatry, that number is large.”
I don’t understand the last sentence. The figures you posted are a percentage. How does a small profession translate into 0.8% being a large number?
You are crying wolf over 0.3%? (the difference between pods and MDs). I’m sorry but that is ridiculous. You make it seem like only 0.5% (your analogy of acting) of pods are successful…this is clearly a misrepresentation on your part. Maybe this is your problem when you began your research in podiatry…I don’t think you have a firm understanding of statistics.
Podiatry Today had a poll a couple of months ago. They asked the question, “If you could do it all over again, would you still go into Podiatry?” The results were 50 – 50 and a lot of comments said that they would have became an MD instead. A lot of comments, IMO, were “the grass is always greener” type of comments.
On SDN a couple of years ago they also asked the same question for MDs. For the MDs 60% said no and 40% said yes. The ones who said no said that they would go into another field because they felt that with their intelligence and work ethic, they could have made it bigger in other professions. IMO they also had the “grass is always greener” mentality.
The interesting thing about these 2 polls are that 1) more pods said that they would still go into podiatry. And 2) the DPM poll is with Obamacare on peoples minds while the MD poll was before. I bet that if they did another MD poll, the number that would still go into medicine would be even lower.
Stacey. Please leave this profession for your own good. Your conclusion that Podiatry exists to ” make peoples nails straight” shows your ignorance of the field. It sounds like you have been listening to nothing but negative people and hence your attitude. My experience with Podiatry has been quite positive. Especially since we do three year surgical residencies.
Stop waiting on an email from your dean and go knock on his door and get your questions answered.
If I had made the comments you have made, i would have already left.
Respectfully,
LovePodiatry as ever was
This is technically a troll post. So here we go, I got ordained today online and can add that to my credentials. I can marry, baptise and provide spiritual counseling. My DPM scope wouldn’t afford that.
Reality is for weekdays and I chose podiatry because we do not have to work on the weekends and have a nine to five job. My nine to five job is great!!!!! I go to the office and see patients and earn a great salary. I live in a wonderful home and my boss is a brilliant podiatrists who studied surgery at the very best of the best podiatry hospitals in Detroit. That is correct Detroit which is the promised land for podiatry. Praise be. I have student loans that I happily pay monthly and will do so for the next twenty years. I love podiatry so much that I have a house made of toe nails and bunion debris. So join me as I bless the profession that kept its promises and allowed me this luxury to praise podiatry and work at a job that pays well and affords me this luxury home….wait a minute someone is calling. Ooops I gotta go the security people are coming. They got a straight jacket cheez I think its for me I gottta runnn ….. shoot here they come bye bye I am going to bless podiatry again later when the … Ouch one hand typoinggg it sstingggs they just injected me,,,,dozingggggg oggfff…….help me im in the looney binnn ddpppmmlkjfklluo’ijfq,.
Get this asshole off the computer put him back in his rooom. Sorry to anyone this patient typed. This is a mental institution and the patients are not supposed to use the equipment. Anonymous orderly.
LovePodiatry,
LovePodiaty as ever was?
Doesn’t have the odomodopia for a good handle, why not try:
LovePodiatry and always will
LovePodiatry head to toe
LovePodiatry 2bad4u
I am flattered you find that usage accomodative to your needs, nonetheless I am certain you can do better.
http://defaulteddocs.dhhs.gov/discipline.asp
70/13,000 default. that’s about 0.5%
(NOTE: AMPA reports that there is approximatley 13k podiatrist currently practicing. also, if you examine the list for those who defaulted, it looks like most of them were in the late 1980′s to early 90′s. I couldn’t find a single recent (i.e. 2000 or later) default.)
I am a college student at an upper tier private school and have been looking into podiatry.
My frat pals and I talked with several podiatrists and have been reading the threads and talked to a bunch of state and government associations. Everyone tells different stories.
The site that is uncensored is hilarious and has some interesting and absurd posts but a common them is that there is a lot of confusion in the profession.
I am not looking for student loans but I do want a legit career. I did not get into medical school in the US and am considering the offshore schools. I want to be a doctor but from what I read podiatry is a field that does not have its act together.
Unless someone can give me a legitimate reason to pick podiatry as a first professional degree as opposed to going to graduate school then re-applying to med school is cool. You podwatchers are totally wierd. Either you make these posts drunk or after too many bong hits. In all the posts on this thread there are not too many with decent command of the English language.
Don’t believe anything you read. Go to the state board and get names of DPMS pick them at random and call and ask away maybe visit and see what they do. Do this ten times and you will probably reach the same conclusion in any state. These are some dumb mofos. Stay in school everything you read about podiatry is BS generated by people vested in the field. Go to a med school library and try finding a podiatry book or journal. Maybe a reference to the best profession that never was.
the very first sentence of your post “Lies4U” pretty much sums it up for me…
“DON’T BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU READ”
OK.
Go to podiatry school. It is great. You will get whatever you want and the DPM is accepted worldwide. You will NEVER EVER have a problem finding a job because orthopdic groups and other podiatrists are sweeping up graduates so fast you have to hide from them. DPM degrees are like GOLD no…Platinum PURE PLATINUM!
You will have all your wishes come true. Having a DPM degre is like finding a magic bottle on the shore and genie comes out and grants you wishes galore.
You will also be healthy wealthy wise and find the greatest wife/husband and the sex will be great until you are at least 102 years of age and your spouse will never age and you will never get sick and you will just be the happiest most self-fulfilled benevolant, brilliant, human among humans. Did I mention you will be endowed with great talent and your creative abilities which remained dormant will awaken – you will paint, conduct orchestras and write books and everything you touch will be treasured for all time and your chiildren will grow to be wonderful.
Yes yes yes go for the podiatry school and you will never ever regret it!!!
Here are a few points I consider important to keep things in proper perspective.
If you want to be a foot and ankle doc, surgeon, become a certified wound care physician etc then Podiatry is something to consider.
Podiatry is not traditional medical school and thus there aren’t books on it in med school libraries, as the arrogant poster above has stated…
In reality though, Podiatry in practice is very traditional and evidence based medicine. Infections are treated just as an ID doc would, the same surgeries are performed which an orthopedist would do, incision and drainage, casting, etc is done just as in allopathic specialties.
Primary care docs refer to Podiatry just as they would to any specialty. NOBODY CARES where you went to school, only that you are competent.
In summary, Podiatry offers a nontraditional pathway perhaps, but once in practice and even in residency, you are expected to perform at the same level, of evidence based treatment, as any doctor.
There are podiatrists who are chief of surgery in hospitals, and many in ortho and miltispecialty groups. Naysayers will brush this fact off saying that its not that common so blah blah, and continue to judge the profession negatively. The fact remains that it IS true and possible, and if the profession were not legit, then you would NEVER see pods in these positions. EVER. AND I MEAN NEVER EVER.
I guess it just annoys me when ignorant people presume that since Podiatry follows its own educational model, they believe we practice some witch doctor medicine and that were all stupid.
The educational model in Podiatry is evidence based, and comprehensive just as medical school, and designed to produce well rounded looser extremity experts.
Lol… I meant lower extremity experts…
Lies4You…
Your posts are neither helpful nor constructive, and frankly you sound idiotic, and I question your motivation. I guess if you get an MD then your dreams really will come true and you really will have great sex til age 102? Great.
Trolls are awesome. At least the divinity guy was funny
One final comment… im a little confused at two of the main criticisms of Podiatry on this thread- that the dpm isn’t good for anything besides practicing clinical Podiatry… and that its not recognized in other countries…
Since I plan on being a podiatrist until I retire, and since im not planning on setting up a shop in romania… I fail to see the importance of this.
Why on earth would anyone go to med school or Podiatry school or dental school if they didn’t plan on practicing.
If career lateralization is important to you as a dpm… then take a couple years and get an mba or a masters of public health or even a phd on the side while you practice.
Some of the things debated on this thread are so irrelevant, you can tell its weird pre-med ego talk
agreed BK…
I would gladly take the USMLE in addition to the NBPME if given the opportunity. Hopefully, the day will come where this will be possible.
I would also gladly take the USMLE but the problem isn’t on our end. The APMA, NBPME, AME had a conference call about this issue and the director of the AME said that he couldn’t foresee a time when they would allow DPM students to take the USMLE. From the AME’s perspective, the reason for taking the USMLE is to apply for allopathic residencies not to show parity.
Mr. Someone, that is a shabby reason and difficult to take seriously. You post as if you are an expert. Are you? Or are you a student with an inlated sense of self? The usmle would not only indicate a threshold of knowledge but eliminate a costly redundancy. You have. 1000 student applicants to 9 schools at roughly 50 graduates to each school. Someone, you fail to apply logic to this scenario. Board of podiatry examiners serves such a small population that it becomes less viable as an entity capable of examining the education level of its subjects. Perhaps a broader approach is outside of the internascine elements endemic to podiatric education. Isolate the problems and approach them in a systematic manner eliminating waste and efficiency. Failure to do so will result in ten more years of similar posts and dissatisfaction. You are apparently a student. By the caliber of your posts I suspect you have found your rightful place in podiatric. It appears that your zealotry will not garner favour with those in positions to advance your cause. Educate yourself with a broader understanding of the mechanics of complex systems in an unpredictable environment. The fate of podiaty is in the hands of very few and yes there will be more of the same until someone (not you) steps up and leads the way.
I got here to read this stuff cause I heard it was it was funny and good for a laugh. I know its a joke thing cause there ain’t no such thing as somebody dumb enough to write D P M after their name. Hells fire you migthaswell write XYZ or somethin like that. I dont wanna offend anyone if this if for real but it sure looks goofy.
I picture the banjo player in the movie Deliverance. Not that I’m not any braniac but you poddy folks sure do write like evangelical foot freaks. My pal Cletis said this is some real funny stuff. Why’d anybody wanna be a foot doctor in the first place when ole Jim Bob the shoe shine fella at the barber shop could do the same stuff.
Isn’t there a new installment of the Harold and Kumar movies, Harold and Kumar go to podiatry school?
Podwatcher,
I am a student. I’ve never claimed to be an expert.
And like I said…from the AME’s perspective (these are the guys that administer the USMLE)…
What’s so hard to understand about that…
From the Talented Mr. Ripley
“I’d rather be a fake someone than a real no one.”
How do you know that some of these posts are not made by potential employers, residency directors or other people looking for talent?
You don’t.
Enough with the troll posts, most likely made by the same person over and over to cause conflict
Troll posts are like stinky foot doctors. Boo. I want a Red Stripe!
How many podiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?
All of them.
hey reverend…something tells me it took you all night and every brain cell you possess to come up with that waste of space on my computer screen……..
Can i get an AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMEN? (was that how you put it?)
Caddypod,
In the OR, the patients lay down on the OR table (sometimes under general anesthesia) and TRUST the Podiatrist to cut into their foot/ankle in order to HELP them.
To allow another person to cut into your own body while you are sedated…THAT IS COMPLETE TRUST and shows how much RESPECT patients have for their Podiatrists.
Prestige is relative. As an MD, DPM (or so you claim), you should have realized that it is all about the patient’s health…not what anyone else thinks of you…
So if a primary care doc examines a patients foot, where does he position himself? Above the patient because he’s an MD? Draw your own conclusions.
Another example of an arrogant MD putting down Podiatry without legitimate reason.
Caddy… I had somewhat of a level of respect for your ideas and opinions because I thought you had legitimate interest in bettering our profession. After that last post, I can see you only say things to stir up drama, and your arrogant attitude about what you consider so important as prestige in medicine quite honestly has turned me off completely.
Im glad you achieved your imagined prestige. Podiatry is only looked down on by people such as yourself.
well said lovepodiatry.
Caddy… your comment could only be perceived as arrogant when one realizes that 75 percent of the lower extremity exam is performed with the doc standing and the patient either prone or supine or weightbearing, walking, etc. Appropriately, a certain amount of it is done with the patient sitting above the doc. When I have had an internist or neurologists perform a lower extremity exam on me, they were positioned below me.. I DID NOT CARE.
Additionally I frequently listen to heart and lungs, do cranial nerve assessment, etc.
Perhaps you did not intend to portray arrogance, but in light of the fact that you only offered criticism of something without offering any suggestions at all… well you get the point.
I am a forward thinker. I just don’t like BS
Another fallacy in your statement is that you imply that it is the patients of podiatrists who look down on them. When in fact that couldn’t be further than the truth.
Some doctors, mainly foot orthos look down on Podiatry. ( most do not. Most do not care or even think twice about it). You know this.
So when people say Podiatry is “looked down on”… it seems foolish to me to make such a generalization, when in reality its only true of about 0.5% of the population
Caddypod,
How does bringing up Examination room features and following it up with “Is there a correlation as to why podiatry is looked down upon?” have anything to do with your follow up post..”How does the podiatry chair place the examiner in a position to verily examine the lower extremity?”…
Your posts make no sense. If you want to make a point…then get to the point.
Caddypod,
Why didn’t you just say that from the get to instead of saying…
“Is there a correlation as to why podiatry is looked down upon?
You can draw your own conclusions.”
Like you said, look at it from a logical point of view…your point is better understood when you spell it out instead of insinuating one thing (podiatrists looked down upon) and meaning another (practicality of the typical podiatry examination chair.
I’m going to go out on a limb (no pun intended) and say caddypod is the same person who keeps changing their name and giving us these lovely poems. While on that same limb and seeing how easy it is to post on this particular forum (you don’t even have to sign up for anything), I’m guessing caddypod (the one that is currently posting as caddypod anyway) is not actually a DPM, nor an MD. I would certainly hope that somebody as accomplished as this person would be having two doctorate degrees would have a somewhat better and more interesting life than sitting around and posting on SDN all day about how horrible podiatry is. No this person is likely some freshman/sophomore pre-med “wannabe” in undergrad that knows nothing about the real world or how any particular type of doctor is treated. Everyone simply needs to stop feeding this troll.
What is a troll–please explain this term. thanks.
Have followed this and the uncensored site 4 yrs. I first saw the podaitry bytes 10 yrs ago and at the time was in school thought it was BS loser jerk. 10 yrs. I did my resdncy got a job with a group of MD/DO dox FP IM ORTHO. It was all about $ they took 60% off the top. At 1st they fed me pts and had plenty of work after a few months the adminisstator took a meet with me and stressed that I had to bring in pts. I did. Went out and hustled doing screenings healthfairs etcetera. Since The Group had all my #s and did the billing I had no control of what was billed out. When the place got investigated had to repay $. I had to come up with 100% payback. NOT the 40%. Lesson? Open up your own practice and keep track of everything that goes out with your name on it. Know your CPT ICD codes like you know the back of your hand. I write this because the caddy mentioned podiatry chairs. When I opened my own office outside of the community and could not bring my own patients with me, I had a noncompete contract. I should have read the fine prient. Rent was reasonable and the prices for equipment fair. I make this post because I shopeed for podiatry chairs and did not know how expensive they were 2-6 thousand dollars. I am particular and wanted new equipment and could have bought used. It was inexpensive to get flat exam tables and they work out fine. I read a post on the uncensored site forum yesterday about the subservient position and have to agree. The only exam tables used at the clinic were flat exam tables that worked fine,
Try think in terms of practice being a business nobody cares what degrees you have it is about money and keeping it and getting the patients in.
Amen.
“In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.”
-wikipedia
Found something that Caddypod posted on another website:
“Do you realize that I dont caddy because I need to I OWN THE COUNTRY CLUB!!
can your mind comprehend how amazing that is? I drive a porche.
I was soo blssed it isnt even fair. I left the awful DPM profession and became an MD. I can buy and sell 30 worthless DPMs . When some arrogant, lowclass , vulgar DPM brags about how much money he makes, I realize how puny his brain must be, He isnt a real doctor. He probably made his money kissing old ladies and clipping their nails. Pods dont understand the human body, they barely understand the foot.
I watched a podiatrist today. I watched him closely with great pity. I wish ed I could lend himk some of my blessed life. For he is cursed. I watched him as he set foot into his nissan sentra and thought “boy am i glad I ‘m not him”"
Doesn’t sound like someone who wants to “help” the profession…
Owns the country club, drives a Porsche, has the mighty MD behind his name…..
yet manages to grace us with his presence 10+ times a day on a website intended mainly for students…
Some success story if you ask me, I’m sure EXTREMELY BUSY with his very successful MD career…definitely someone from whom we should be taking advice
What caddypod is doing is pretty obvious.
He comes in here and all of the other podiatry websites to bring down the profession. If he is able to get others, and ultimately himself, to think that the Podiatric Profession is bad then he can now blame his failures on the profession, not himself.
I can hear him now…”I didn’t fail…the profession did. I am not a loser!” -caddypod
I found this interesting… out of curiosity I visited the almost uncensored site a couple days ago… it is a haven for pisses off DPMs to say crazy stuff, vent in the form of poems, etc… it turns out that all those weird poems posted a few days ago were first posted on that site, and the authors saying ” now let’s give it to them on SDN!”.
Surprisingly, anon who is extremely negative on here, was posting on that site defending Podiatry and saying he had very successful practice and loves his work…
These posts are a big game to most people.
Arguing is a waste of time anyway.
Don’t let one persons crazy opinion get you all riled up.
Emotional Podiatric Outbursts? What is that and what makes it podiatric?
Read the post I found above…yes caddypod truly cares about the profession (sarcasm)…
someone-
Funny you reference a DPM you supposedly watched drive away in a Nissan Sentra compared to your supposed Porsche. The DPM I shadowed drives a 7 series BMW and has season tickets to all three professional sports teams in his city. Better yet I saw an MD (yes that’s right a real MD!) who came to our school drive away in his beat up old Honda. Now you have me completely baffled how this could possibly happen. How is it possible that a lowly DPM could possibly afford those things (you know because they don’t make any money and all) while this MD (who has to be absolutely loaded right?) drives a rusty old Honda? Crazy.
My mistake I just reread what you posted realized you were quoted caddypod. Either way my response is an answer to his post.
I looked the podiatry uncensored website and caddypod’s posts and have come to a conclusion.
Caddypod is that kid back in highschool who sounded smart, but really wasn’t. He used big words and he was well read but he would always do the opposite of what was logical just to be a nonconformist. He seems very intelligent and you thought he would make something of himself but once the high school reunion came around, you find out that he stills lives in his parents basement and still talks like a know it all.
So it is true. The podiatry uncensored gang has come to SDN to “give it” to us lol. Maybe you guys are DPMs or MDs or both with nice cars and save lives all day. It doesnt matter though because you are still spending your days “giving it to SDN” LOL
I’d rather be a DPM than a group of people without anything better to do than post poems on a website for students. I laugh at people who AREN’T “vested financially and emotionally” to a profession yet they talk about it all day on their Podiatry “Uncensored” forum. LOL
Perhaps some of my posts have been less-than humorous to some. That is unfortunate, because you need a sense of humor even if you have to fake it. Nonetheless if you’d care to hurl speculative and conjectural aphorisms choose a forum where your veracity can be discerned, ie., Medscape. It’s open to students of all medical disciplines. Start a thread on physian connect.
There are plenty of podiatrists on the site and serves as a good interchange of ideas and a sense of what’s going on in medicine. Its also a great source of CME.
On another topic, more than a few of you I suspect will, in the next few years strike out on your own. CCS is a practice manangement consulting company available nationwide. I am indirectly involved.
CCS is a DBA name of a privately held limited liability company which is unavailabel via search engines. If you truly are interested in the nuts and bolts of making a living we provide a host of services including but not limited to coding and billing issues as well as the practicality of operating a streamlined practice.
The automobile of choice, is the one you can afford. When you can afford to walk or take a bus, ride a bike or have someone drive you, that, is when you have arrived. Can any of you afford to be inelegant, non-wealthy or the perception thereof?
I’m sure the posts about caddypod driving a jalopy are forthcoming because I am a loser, failure and such – or so you say.
Comments closed. Deleted posts from individuals posting with multiple accounts.