by Helena Bachmann
SDN Reports
If you are a pharmacy student, you are probably wondering what your job prospects will be once you graduate. With a number of new pharmacy schools springing up across the nation, this is a legitimate question.
Because there are many factors at play (such as geography and economic trends), there is no clear-cut answer to this query. However, the outlook is far from bleak, especially if you are flexible in your choices and open to new challenges.
First, let’s look at some figures. According to American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy (AACP), the national association representing pharmacy education in the United States, 26 new schools have received recognition by the Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education since 2005-06; 22 of them currently have students enrolled and the other four will enroll their inaugural class in Fall 2010. These schools have class sizes ranging from 50 to 100 students. In all, they will increase the graduation cohort by approximately 1,000 pharmacists over the next several years.
What does this mean in terms of jobs for newly minted pharmacists? “We have seen that the volume of new graduates is making an impact,” Afton Yurkon, Associate Director of Management and Student Affairs at National Community Pharmacists Association (NCPA) tells SDN. “There has been a slowdown in the ease with which new graduates can find a job and certain areas have more demand than others.”
Another factor – the slumping economy – has also reduced the number of open positions for new pharmacy school graduates.
“The current economic downturn and accompanying unemployment has brought many health professionals back into the workforce or has caused currently licensed professionals, including pharmacists, to increase the hours they work,” says Rebecca Morgan, AACP’s Director of Communications. “This, coupled with the number of people who have lost insurance coverage and are cutting back on prescription medicines, has the job market for pharmacists as tight as it has been in more than three decades.”
Look at the big picture
Although these are not the answers you may have been hoping for, the news is not all bad. In fact, the Pharmacy Manpower Project Inc., a nonprofit corporation that develops data on the size and demography of the pharmacy workforce and conducts research in related areas, shows that the hiring demand still exists, more in some geographical areas than in others.
The Aggregate Demand Index (ADI) on the project’s website indicates a high surplus as 1.0 and a high demand as 5.0. The most current data (beginning of 2010) shows the level of 3.45.
What exactly does this mean as far as job openings are concerned? While at the beginning of this year, there were no states with demand level of 5.0, there were more than 20 with the index of 4 or over. For example, California had the highest ADI level at 4.08, while Wisconsin and Kansas were both at 4.00, which signals some difficulty filling open positions.
The website shows values for all states and regions, so you will have a clearer idea of current job trends and openings.
Now for the good news
Yes, there is good news – “pharmacist unemployment is still very low nationally,” AACP’s Morgan says.
But that’s not all. Morgan points out that additional pharmacy colleges will provide “a larger number of highly educated medication use specialists to the workforce just as an estimated 33 million people have expanded access to insurance coverage under health reform. In addition, the aging of the population and increased incidence of chronic illness, which is almost always treated with medication, suggests the demand for pharmacists will grow.”
That doesn’t mean, however, that the jobs will be there for the taking, especially in large metropolitan areas. “If new graduates are flexible with respect to where they practice, there are jobs for all,” Morgan notes. “This includes the opportunities to provide pharmacy services to previously underserved populations in rural areas and the inner city, perhaps through agencies like the Indian Health Service or public health clinics. It also opens doors to entrepreneurial practices in health clinics and physicians’ offices.”
More opportunities on the horizon
Morgan also points out the existence of another potential job market – filling the void left by departing pharmacists. “A very large number of pharmacists who graduated in the 1970s are nearing retirement, if not completely, then by decreasing their hours to part time,” she says. “This opens tremendous career opportunities in management and leadership positions for younger practitioners who may be seeking these challenges.”
All things considered, the profession still offers new and future graduates exciting opportunities in a variety of venues, Morgan says: “Pharmacy education provides a broad array of choices for career direction to today’s graduates, including careers as faculty in a college of pharmacy.”
This is the first in an ongoing series of SDN Reports on topics suggested by our membership. To suggest a topic for a future SDN Report, please submit a message to help.studentdoctor.net.
bad article. the number or schools that keep opening is too much. pharmacy is the next law school. too many schools keep opening. you are not doing procedures, you just use your mind. since you cannot perform physical exams you are limited by that as well.
pharmacy is a dying profession. salaries will indeed 100% drop. anyone that argues against that isnt familiar with SUPPLY AND DEMAND. there is already a surplus and this surplus will be vast in the next 2 years.
100% Correct!
100% correct.
John I would have to disagree with you. Yes there are many schools opening up at a substantial rate; however, I bet you are only looking at a standpoint of “retail pharmacists”. If you knew the profession, there are many opportunities opening up in the field besides retail pharmacists. The reason you saying what you are saying is because you lack the knowledge of the field like many other people do in this country and this may be due to the fact that most graduates of pharmacists do go into retail. You only think pharmacists work behind the counter like hundreds of other people I have encountered (“Ohh really, I though pharmacists only work in pharmacy stores, behind the counter”). Start looking at other specialities that pharmacists conduct, such as fields of nuclear, consultant, clinical, sales, marketing, military, cancer, research,forensics, and etc.
I am a hospital pharmacist in NY. I can reasure you that the majority of hospitals in the NY and NJ area are not hiring. I worked in retail for a while as well…and that is even worse. The specialties that your brought up are very scarce and require additional training (except for military….which pays pharmacists about 30k per year). The VAST majority of jobs for pharmacists are retail followed by hospital.
I have seen recent grads who passed by my hospital during their 6th year rotations looking for work 6 months after getting their license.
Are you a professor? Do you work in academia? …….Don’t listen to your professers kids! They will feed you lies. You don’t have to listen to me….go to your local hospital/pharmacy and ask if they are hiring!
what is the job availability impact by foreign trained pharmacist entering the USA pharmacy market, Is the NABP accrediting too many foreign Pharmcists???
Please we don’t need you here, US trained pharmacists don’t even have jobs.
I am about two years time from the application process and am very disheartened to hear about the job market for pharmacists. Pharmacy was something I really wanted to do, but unfortunately I am not completely thrilled about the idea of having to move somewhere that I wouldn’t enjoy living in order to practice.
So if worst comes to worst, I will have to consider Medical or PA schools, or better yet, simply pack up and move to another country and work there for a bit. Does anyone happen to have any information about the job market in Canada or England? Is it just as bad over there as it is over here? Or is the problem exclusive to our country due to the surplus?
-current undergraduate student
I don’t know what the market is like in Canada…but I did look into the pharmacy market in the UK. Although its not as saturated as the US, there is a big difference in pay. The UK pharmacists get about $70,000 in US dollars per year. The average pharmacist makes a little over 100k in the US. Also take into consideration the cost of living in the UK…..its much much higher then the US.
I believe this article is also poorly written, but for different reasons than the previous poster. Why was the AACP not contacted for statement… they forget to mention that still more schools are applying for accreditation each year still causing more inflation of clinicians in the profession… so what about that? When will they cap off on how many schools are open?
The pharmacy job market is in a tailspin. The organizations that are calculating the supply and demand and have been encouraging the schools to increase output have a vested interest in providing revenue for the schools of pharmacy and keeping a good, cheap supply of pharmacists. In other words they are BIASED! The demand for pharmacists in metropolitan areas is drying up, and the so-called alternative careers have not yet come to fruition. The schools of pharmacy and the AACP were never friends of the working pharmacist in the field. What these narrow minded academicians do not realize is that once there is no longer a shortage of practitioners, the quality of the work environment goes down, and pharmacist employees have to jump through hoops to please their employers. Quotas for prescription filling have become much more common recently in many retail and mail order operations, and the “clinical” role in most retail settings is still theoretical rather than practical. The fact that the population is aging does not guarantee an increased need for pharmacists in this age of rapidly improving sources of information and technology. When will pharmacists ever learn these simple principles of supply and demand, rather than listen to the dictates of pharmacy educators who have only their own welfare in mind!
I could not have said it better. The only point I would like to add is that the pharmacists at my hospital who are within retirement age refuse to retire because of the economic climate.
As a pharmacists of 33 yrs., I try to look at things realistically. Pharmacy schools are built to make money and money comes from increased numbers. I believe all these schools have sold their students and prospective students a lot of false hope in the future of pharmacy. Increasing enrollment sometimes as much as 50% shows how greedy these schools and their tenured high priced professors really are. Ten years ago, people were warning about the oversupply of pharmacists and now it has hit us all in the face. Of course the schools are grinning all the way to the bank with sacks of loan money from the poor ignorant students, who will be in hock forever. People I know are griping all the time about the lack of work, especially in some urban areas. My advice is to go into heating and air or be a plumber, they are most often wealthy and there are never enough of them!
Pharmacy schools are feeding the students a line of BS, and at least in the case of private colleges running their students into $150-200K of debt – only to have them graduate and find a dwindling job market for their services, and that of course will lead to lower salaries. And the big chains are helping to fund this oversupply with their own financial benefit (in the form of lower salaries) under the guise of being “friends to pharmacy education.”
That debt load is going to become a harder sell for the schools as salaries inevitably drop. My advice is that unless pharmacy or medicinal chemistry is your passion in life that you DO NOT go to pharmacy school. If it is your passion, by all means follow it, but if your thought process is “Well the pay is pretty good and I like to help people” then I would advise against it.
I graduated last year, $180K in debt, and if I could go back 5 years and do it all over, I wouldn’t…and yes I am employed and making good money…but the working conditions are horrible, & will I get to make this kind of money for long enough to pay off the loan? I doubt it – supply & demand will win out.
The So Cal market is way oversaturated.
It’s the same in AZ and NV.
In my area, the percent of retail pharmacists with H1B visas is over 65%.
I don’t know why the chains hired them 2 years ago, but they feel obligated to keep them fully employed while the rest of us watch.
If you’re over 35, start looking into niche areas.
If you’re younger, I would change professions unless you’re content with 3 years and you’re out.
I’ve tried residencies for 4 years in a row in CA. There are at least 25 applicants per spot.
I graduated from pharmacy school in 2006 and am glad that I did; since then the graduating class has increased from 130 students per year to 150 students. Additionally, a newly accredited school is slated to graduate its first class of about 60 students soon, bringing the total number of graduates to 200+ pharmcists per year in CO. Moreover, I work for a major retail chain and there are NO openings in the Denver Metro area. If one desires retail, then the only positions are in the rural areas of my state (I live in Colorado). Only so many Walgreens, Walmarts, Grocery Stores, can be built per year, and each employes only 2 to 3 full time pharmacists. With advanced computer systems and error-prevention technologies, it’s not uncommon for a pharmacist to verify 200 scripts in an 8 to 12 hour shift. However, I have seen a fair amount of positions for hospital pharmacists and clinical positions at Kaiser (an HMO); however these require completion of a 1 to 2 year residency. So, at least in the Denver area, and with respect to retail pharmacy, supply is definitely MUCH greater than demand.
As supply exceeds the demand, evidently this year a giant mail order company has successfully cut their rph salary by 25K a year, lay off a lot of rph, make whoever stay work almost twice harder.
Rediculously, you may see some hospital or clinical positions open this and there, but just to be a candidate you’ll need to have a 1 or 2 years residency experience and 2 years hospital experience for staff rph (starting salary $41-45 in the eascost area ).
how are we gonna get the experience if no one is willing to give us a chance ? and the residency program is very very competitive !
As far as retail pharmacy go, we’re treated like a dog, stand on our feet 12 to 14 hr/d, no lunch, no break, get yelled at , plus doing flu shot on top of filling 200 to 500 rx a day.
I’m only in this profession for 3 years, i’m already sick of this, but i have to work like a dog a few more years to save up enough to start my own non-pharmacy related business.
More pharmacists entering the job market may not be good for bad pharmacists, as they are likely to be fired and replaced with better-educated, more knowledgeable pharmacists. A more competitive job market can only be good for patients, as the quality of their providers will be increased!
Wow, you must be a corporate manager . . . you completely changed the subject. If there be such a thing as a “bad” pharmacist, one would think the licensing board and/or employer would have already removed that individual from behind the counter. But, given financial realities, most corporate managers would be thrilled to keep a “bad” pharmacist on staff, as a “bad” pharmacist can be paid less and is far less likely to quit for a better job.
Now, consider reality. If the job market gets tougher, and especially if wages start dropping, some of the best and brightest will find something else to do for a living, and the applicant pool for schools will lessen in quality. Factually, when the job market finds a notable surplus of employees, wages do tend to depress. How many pharmacists are willing to go back to a full-time equivalent wage of $70,000, which is the inflation-adjusted wage that the typical retail pharmacist was being paid 15 years ago? I can hear the screams now, when all those pharmacists who are used to a $100,000+ lifestyle suddenly find themselves set back 30%. All that “I want to help people” crap that pharmacy school applications are filled with aside, most people pursued pharmacy because there is a sizable financial payoff when finished . . . the “I want to help people” was just BS for the application. If those pharmacists (and lawyers, dentists, etc.) sole concern was helping people, they could get a tow truck and drive up and down the road looking for stranded motorists, and’ “help” them. No p-school required for that. If the financial reward is taken away, your theory about how a more competitive job market will help the patient erodes away, because only the bottom of the pool will be left.
I understand that choosing a profession isn’t ONLY about the money. Yet, outside the tiny handful who apply their skills as missionaries in Africa, nobody would spend all that money, forego the opportunity to earn a wage while in p-school, and jump through countless hoops in order to be a doctor, lawyer, dentist, pharmacist, etc., if there wasn’t a payoff in cold hard cash on the other end. If doctors, lawyers, optometrists, dentists, and yes, pharmacists were told in big bold print on the front of their professional-school applications that their wages would be preset at the average wage for their community (nationally, approximately $35,000 for a full-time job), most of the top applicants-to-be would be pursuing another career.
I graduated in 2006 with my Pharm.D and the job outlook was great. I was able to stay on in retail with Walgreens (I worked for them as a full time tech prior to pharmacy school as well as through the Intern and Grad Intern phase) and receive a 50k sign on bonus. I worked for Walgreens for 10 years and during my last year and a half, I tried incessantly to transfer from the midwest to the east coast to no avail. I had to quit and move to CVS, who hired me on the spot after an opening occurred. I had 4 years of RXM experience with Walgreens that helped I am sure. With some negotiation, I was able to negotiate the nearly the same pay as a staff pharmacist that I was making as an RXM with WAG as well as my vacation time and COBRA reimbursement. Needless, to say if you are a good pharmacist there will always be a spot. I cannot complain for 60 dollars an hour…It appears there are many good pharmacists but bad ones as well who complain about working or having to do anything and just want to read a magazine and not be bothered (speaking of retail). Unless you are willing to differentiate yourself by brushing up on clinicals, immunizing and delivering MTM services then you deserve to end up in some call center. It amazes me to work side by side with pharmacists who are so incompetent that they can barely recognize a workflow chart, let alone a cyp interaction. Pharamacy as a profession is changing. Change with it or get left behind.
As a mid-career pharmacist, I think this article is far more optimistic than I, and possible deceptive. Several market forces acting in the same direction will make things very tough for future PharmDs: 1) Old RPhs not retiring because of the drop in their nest egg in 2008-2009, 2) the near halting of new store opening for the major retail chains. I think Walgreens is already at 8000+, 3) established schools are cranking out new grads at record rates, 4) new pharm schools are popping up like dandelions in my front yard in April.
In the next several years we will see hundreds of newly minted RPhs hit the job market each year with $150k+ students loans with no jobs in sight. They will be forced to take much lower paying non-pharmacy jobs (existing RPh salaries will probably drop as well, clinical and retail). The next financial crisis — massive defaults on pharmacy school student loans?
PS Don’t think that because you work in a hospital or “clinical” setting that you are better or “safe”. There will be 10 new grads lined up begging for your job, too.
Im a hospital working…..and in the union!
Pharmacy profession is dramatically changing such as more clinical based, heavy emphasis on academic strength and leadership skills, and longer and specific training as residency and fellowships.
The pharmacists, who cannot keep up with these changes, should be left behind unfortunately.
Dispensing will be very minimal function of future pharmacists as various technologies-dispensing s/w and h/w will take care of it. However, we will need pharmacists, who can develop and maintain these systems. I see a lot of engineers are transitioning their career into the field of pharmacy as much as they do into the field of medicine. Of course, their engineering skills will be very beneficial for future pharmacy!
MTM, clinical research, managed care, specialty pharmacy such as oncology, transplant, immunology, ambulatory care, etc, pharmaceutical/biogenics manufacturing operation/qualification, insurance audit, pharmacoeconomist, pharmacogenomist, academia, etc, etc.
People here skeptic about the future pharmacy must be the ones, who are not brave enough to take new roles of pharmacists and, who are not competent enough to participate in the evolution of the pharmacy profession.
Pharmacy students: please focus on developing your skills and knowledge to become a competent pharmacist instead of being worried/swayed by skeptic comments by pharmacists in the past time.
Kelly, you are a twat. “People here skeptic about the future pharmacy must be the ones, who are not brave enough to take new roles of pharmacists and, who are not competent enough to participate in the evolution of the pharmacy profession”.
Really? Because my husband has been in pharmacy for over 35 years, and has more experience than you could probably even list on your little post. He has NEVER been unemployed in his life until this point. It’s sickening. The market is OVERSATURATED and it doesn’t look like it is going to get any better. Get off your high horse, you sound like a self righteous bitch. Since people have nothing good to say about the profession right now they aren’t competent? I wish I could slap you. THE TRUTH PEOPLE IS THAT THE PHARMACY PROFESSION SUCKS RIGHT NOW, JUST LIKE THE LAW PROFESSION, THIS IS THE REALITY. Yes, I am angry. I’m angry that a good profession is being ruined by greedy pharmacy schools.
Joan…you are 100% correct…unfortunately.
Let me tell you, from someone in the top 10% of my class at USC and about to graduate (a top 10 school). The market is over-saturated and these worthless random schools opening up are going to drive salaries down. Most people in my class are ready and willing to accept 60k to 75k jobs (we have only 60% employment rate right now) so thats 40% just out of luck. And the alternative careers thing is a complete myth. At our school the rate of success of getting into so called alternative career paths like managed care, industry, etc. is probably less than 1%. Even people who are on elite dual degree tracks are getting denied fellowships and residencies. Residency is another matter, at my school we are pretty well connected and even then only half a 50% match rate. Pharmacy is going down fast. Thank god that I went to USC and that many pharmacy owners in southern california happen to be from USC. That’s how I’ve got my job but friends at other schools are doing worse. No joke there are people in my class that are 4th years studying to get into optometry school and I’m not even kidding. I know of 3 people like this.
On the flip side, pharmacy is becoming a world of two classes. There is a certain group in the elite class that is on their way to doing extremely well. One kid in our class accepted an offer for a 150k+ as an MSL for a pharma starting salary on the east coast. Others are doing well in residency programs. There is just the bottom half that is going to be struggling for a long time until we destroy the rest of these schools. I make a plea to all my fellow established pharmacy school members. Let’s lock out the new grads from other schools. Let’s keep the jobs within the family and show the accrediation board they can’t make stupid decisions without backlash.
Here is a taste of reality:
Its difficult getting retail jobs when the big retailers are hiring. Its difficult getting hospital jobs when older pharmacists aren’t retiring. Its hard getting into specialty/niche pharmacy with no specialty/niche experience. Its hard getting clinical jobs when they require 1 to 2 year residencies. Its hard to get residencies when there are 25 applicants per spot. New technology and corporate consolidation doesn’t exactly help the pharmacists (increases our workload, by decreasing the number of tech hours per shift). Lack of unionization forces pharmacist to work 10-14 hour work shifts.
Obviously, pharmacy school administrators and pharmacy organizations are going to say that oversaturation and hiring freezes are myths. After all the only reason these schools and organizations exist is to collect money from students through membership fees.
I interviewed with pretty much every big chain and hospital on the West Coast, and all positions required relocation to the middle of nowhere, or required residencies for even non-clinical hospital jobs.
When I graduate in a month or so, I probably will not have a job but I will have this awesome 120K loan to pay back. The reality of the situation is only thing growing in the pharmacy profession is the number of pharmacy schools that keep opening each year, and the number of suckers willing to hand them cash for a pharmd. degree.
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Reading all these comments made me all the depressed. I guess I am one of the so called bad pharmacists as I don’t have a job. I am willing to settle for a job, not career, and still could not find a job. There are plenty of clinical job openings but they always require residency and 2 years+ experience. I tried to apply to residency twice and no luck. I wish a better job market for us all.
What I wanted to say originally is that many of my classmates have gotten wonderful paying job and like what they do. They are too tired and busy making money and don’t have time to read and post comments like these. Therefore, I think all the “doom-and-gloom” comments might be a bit skewed.
When I was in school and was very involved. I asked many of my classmates to joining efforts to further pharmacy profession and not too many participate. I don’t want to overgeneralize but many of pharmacists just don’t care what is happening to our profession. In some way, we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
I dont understand the whining and bitching. It is just competition. Law students have been used to this for year. I think even a T14 like georgetown has problems placing 60% of their class in biglaw/midlaw firms.
There is a big difference between competition and oversaturation.
When you have over 50% of the graduating pharmacists without any job prospects….its a big problem. Greedy pharmacy schools are opening up all over the place. Imagine how much better life for lawyers would be if the number of law schools were cut in half. The pharmacy and law schools know all to well that the majority of their graduates will not find work. They simply don’t care and just pursue increasing their enrollment.
“Pharmacy profession is dramatically changing such as more clinical based, heavy emphasis on academic strength and leadership skills, and longer and specific training as residency and fellowships.
The pharmacists, who cannot keep up with these changes, should be left behind unfortunately.”
Laughter. I have 30 years in pharmacy and can’t get a job. I am very much a clinician. I am versed in High volume situations, HIV, Hospice, IVF, IV, ambulatory care to name a few. I don’t have a residency. I have something better, on the job training. I can easily do MTM and all the rest. I regularly wrote SOAP notes for complex situations. I don’t use an electronic device for DI/DD/DN interactions. I do it the old fashioned way. I learned them.
You have bought into a lie. All these ‘extras’ are what we used to call normal skills. Now they are special. The lie is that specialization and more education is the answer. It’s not. It limits your choices. Keep on thinking that your situation (academic strength) makes any difference. No one has asked me what I got on the second biochem test. They only want to know the answer. I can’t wait until you find out that all the bag of tricks you have been sold don’t mean squat to an employer.
Can you stand 12 hours and maintain your edge? Don’t bother me with clinical stuff when 30 scripts are waiting. Don’t waste time on MTM, make money! Reality is going to be a hard hit.
I love being a pharmacist. However, I can’t recommend the degree any longer. Run, Forrest, Run. Don’t believe anyone who tells you the future is rosy. The current situation already $ucks.
I was looking into applying to pharmacy as a solid career with a guaranteed job right after graduation, however, after doing more research and reading people’s comments, I’m beginning to become hesitant and afraid to invest all my time and money into it.
Should I just become a physician’s assistant?
Q: Should I just become a physician’s assistant?
A: Yes.
Better A: Go to med school. If you are able to get into pharmacy school, you can get into med school. There is a genuine need for doctors to diagnose and treat people. People often go to doctors to get services that they can’t do for themselves, either because of lack of knowledge or lack of skill. On the other hand, easily 50% of retail pharmacists (or 40% of all pharmacists) aren’t even needed, except for the laws that say “only by prescription” and “pharmacist must be PRESENT at time patient picks up medicine.” How often have you successfully self medicated with OTC meds like aspirin, Pepto-Bismol, or Visine? There’s no reason you can’t do the OTC thing for other conditions. Even if you don’t know what to do at first, the DOCTOR can check you out, and then tell you what pill to go buy (I mean, isn’t’ that what happens anyway?). If the doctor has told you that you have HBP and to take 10mg lisinopril every morning, why can’t you just go to Wally World, find the lisinopril on the shelf next to the aspirin, and take it to the cashier to pay for it — you do not need a pharmacist for that. Same goes for thyroid meds. We have already seen a whole host of used-to-be prescription-only meds go OTC (curiously coincidental to the patent running out) . . . Prilosec, Claritin, Allegra, Pepcid, etc. etc. The truth is that for many first fills and virtually all refills, the “services” of a pharmacist simply aren’t needed. We all know that pharmacy schools go ape over the “patient counseling” thing. The first time I ever heard of patient counseling was my first day of classes at pharmacy school, and at first I though they were kidding. Never once in my life (when I was in the position of being the patient) did a real live pharmacist “counsel” me, or even attempt to counsel me. Go to a Walmart pharmacy where nobody knows you and sit on the waiting bench. Watch as people come in to get prescriptions filled, and count how many come and go, while also counting how many actually talk to the pharmacist. The FACT is that 95% + of patients get zero pharmacist interaction, and they are no worse off than those who do get counseling. As pointed out earlier, 50% of fills simply don’t need a pharmacist involvement. There is no such thing as a lisinopril junkie. Never heard of anyone selling amoxicillin in a back alley for $5 a pill. Easily, in 50% of the fills, the pharmacist neither provides no measure of value added benefit or serves as an intermediary to help control drug abuse.
I second that “yes”
Well, patient counseling is a great thing, but in high-volume chain-type retail you would be DEAD if more than 1% of the patients agree to get it – the reality is, “I would love to counsel you on your medications and help optimize your therapy, in fact it would be the most enjoyable part of my job, but I am going to check over 300 scripts in my 12 hour shift with no meal break, and I’ve been holding my urine for over an hour trying to catch up, so I really don’t have time for you.”
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the “pharmacy profession” is a concoction made up by schools and industry organizations to promote a concept which only exists by the skin of its teeth. Truth of the matter is there is no unified discipline. PK, warfarin, TPN, MTM, drug storage, distribution, counseling – what broader truth unifies all these disparate functions that we’ve been taught to own? the fact that they all share a common tangential relationship with the word “medication”? hah. “Clinical pharamacy” is the industry-equivalent of picking up scraps and calling this heap a name. But just because you can name something through a play on semantics doesn’t make it a profession, much less an academic endeavour befitting a doctoral degree.
i can’t bring myself to respect pharmacy and pharmacists as a legitimate profession and discipline when 95% of them know less about their role (and their meds) than most physicians.
Are you a physician? Have you been to pharmacy school? I am a physician, my husband is a pharmacist, your post made me laugh. Have you taken courses on drug interaction, pharmacology, etc? You make no valid point as to why the pharmacy profession demands no respect. Sounds more like a bitter diatribe from an underachieving loser. Get over yourself.
“i can’t bring myself to respect pharmacy and pharmacists as a legitimate profession and discipline when 95% of them know less about their role (and their meds) than most physicians.” – Most physicians I work with (I work in a hospital), know little about medications. On a daily basis I correct countless of errors. Once a week I correct at least 2 mistakes that would have definitely killed the patient. NONE of the physicians I worked with know how to correctly calculate aminoglycoside dosages or correctly adjust vanco and phenytoin….among other medications. I am more then willing to put my “Clinical pharmacy” knowledge against any physician I work with. The only physicians I met that have an in depth knowledge of pharmacology are the oncologists. All the others can use a few years back in school.
Amen…
..agree with Mike, the reality of pharmacy as a ‘profession’ (if that is what one wants to refer it as) has become an elusive mess of rhetoric no better than a position as car salesman (sales-persons, please don’t attack me but your job is an art). You are the expert in selling! Likewise, if I had wanted to “sell” something/anything, why would I have become a pharmacist? A B.S. degree is now BPharm- gee, that does ‘look’ a lot better. What then is experience (20 years) worth today. If I (via a JOB-as hospital pharmacist) have ‘already done’ all of the ‘clinical interventions’ that have been painstakingly thought out by pharmacists one by one; to define and legitimatize our ‘clinical role’, what do 90(+) percent of PharmDs actually “have” to give to the h/c team other than, a title of PharmD? The economy has dropped salaries and the bottom line as in everything is supply and demand, therefore we all are taking the brunt.
USC PharmD: I notice that you begin by saying: ‘Let me tell you..”
Why such demeanor? I also went to a top ten University.
I have to agree with most of the posts on this website, even those that bash the profession. Pharmacy has the potential to become a somewhat sovereign specialty the way podiatrists and optometrists have, albeit the vast majority of the work would have to be done in conjunction w/ physicians.
In response to ‘justmud’s comment above, what PharmDs bring with them that the BPharms of the past did not is a general clinical knowledge that one might get from 5-7 years of practice, and a more therapeutic thought process that COULD be used in practice. However, ‘justmud’, they do not HAVE the experience that 5-7 years brings, and this knowledge goes mostly un-implemented until that experience is gained, so in my opinion your point retains validity.
Residencies are a good way to hone the clinical knowledge that has its base membrane laid down in school, however as another before has noted, the applicant:residency ratio is about 25:1, so until that is corrected, the residency route is too limited to be practical. That being said, even if more residencies were offered, there remains the question of their worth. They may open up doors for new grads who seek more than just a staff/ entry level position, but they do very little for those who are seeking clinical positions, as these are in even shorter supply than the highest paid pharmacy positions. And moreover; even if clinical positions were more commonplace, what is the practicality of extensive post-graduate training if all of the skills and clinical knowledge one acquires goes unused because pharmacists have no priveleges as providers? It really is a shame that PharmDs do not have more opportunities to practice the skills that they begin to learn in school and in clerkships and residencies. I have seen pharmacists in clinical positions who are as adept (if not more so) at managing patient’s diseases with medications as physicians, and on rotations, I got many questions from residents and medical students alike about how best to use this or that, how much to give, etc, and for the most part, I felt capable. However, I agree with Mike to some extent. We almost always know less about ‘our’ meds than physicians know about ‘theirs’ for two main reasons:
1) Physicians generally have a short list of drugs from which they choose. This makes it fairly easy to know almost all there is to know about any particular drug on that list. I should know, I work in a setting where we use a fairly short list of meds and I know as much as any specialist about them.
2) We normally don’t get to actually USE them clinically. Most of us see the drugs go out the door and maybe get to hear about the effectiveness from the patient’s perspective but that’s the end of it. My practice setting is a bit different, and I actually manage some of the medications, monitor bloodwork, and adjust TPN formulas – however I realize that my position is a rare one, and I could spend a lot of time defending the clinical competency of some pharmacists, but it doesn’t matter, because in the end, most of us will never be given the chance to demonstrate it before we forget it from lack of use.
Overall I have to agree with most on this site that the PharmD program is hogwash for many of the reasons outlined above, and I couldn’t agree more that the AACP, ACPE, State Boards, Universities and Corporations are driving our profession into the ground by flooding the market w/ pharmacists thereby driving down demand and forcing those left without jobs to settle for less money. I saw this coming years ago but it was too late; I’d already started pharmacy school. Looking objectively I don’t see a lot of hope. One of the only options I see is successfully lobbying for some sort of practitioner sovereignty that forbids corporations from making decisions about staffing, inventory, salary and duties. But then again, that would take a lot of work and quite a bit of courage, and as far as I can tell, no one wants to stand up for this profession and take it out of corporate America’s hands. So for the time being I’m looking into Optometry school.
…And let me just add that pharmacy is more often than not a thankless job where you are shown little to no respect by your employers, patients, or clinicians that you (try to) work with. I could never in good conscience recommend this profession(?) to ANYONE.
To farm-Dee,
I would not jump to optometry so quickly as an answer. That profession has alot of problems, similar to pharmacy…check out yahoo groups: optometry sucks…
LINK http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/optometrysucks/
There are many posts over many years on there.
Optometry was my first choice, until I began to realize what a big financial risk that would be…big loans, few jobs…too many grads…corporate optometry…independent contractor…autorefractors…online/cheaply-priced contacts/eyeglasses, etc…
Thanks a lot for all your comments!
I just took the PCAT last week and got a good grade. I was about to apply to the pharmacy schools. After reading all your helpful comments, I have to think twice on whether I should pursue a pharmacy career or not. It sounds like that the supply is over demands now. I was a software engineer for 10+ years, I can still continue this career as long as I don’t mind changing job a few times.
SE2Pharm, pharmacy was my second career also. I went to pharmacy school only after spending years in another profession. Initially, I enjoyed being a pharmacist. With the saturation, the profession has become worsen over the years. More demands from the management, less pay, and longer hours. A few of my fellow older Rphs had been let-go to make room for the cheaper new grads. I am still young, but eventually I will be replaced without a second thought from management. And each time I switch company, my wages go down. Currently, my IT husband makes more money then me. Sometimes I wish I had become a software engineer myself–better hours and same or better pay as a pharmacist.
Before I entered the pharmacy program I thoroughly researched the demand. This was back in 1996. At the time the demand was there and I was confident that I would be able to find a job and support my family. However, If I was looking to start a career at this point in time…I would not take pharmacy into consideration. I have a good hospital job that is unionized. I am not worried about my future. However, I see many students go through the doors with little future prospects….and that bums me out.
Wow. What a blast of negativity. I consider myself lucky to work in an environment where pharmacists are required to use their cognitive skills every day to improve the lives of patients. Granted, it is in a hospital/ health system setting, and I do preferentially hire grads with residencies or pharmacists with solid clinical skills. That said, these folks generally seem to be happy, challenged and routinely give 110% every day, even though they sometimes have to work afternoons, weekends and holidays, for less pay than their “retail” counterparts. They are respected by physicians, nurses and hospital administration.
I do feel for the folks trapped in the chain store environments. But we all choose our practice settings, and it is difficult for someone who has worked only in a retail setting to find a solid hospital practice job.
So new grads, choose that first job wisely. It may well determine the how successful and happy you are for the rest of your career.
I’m glad you love your job. I have a couple of classmates who went on to do residency and did not find a hospital job afterward. Where I live there is approximately 5 hospitals within 20 miles radius. How many pharmacist jobs can these hospitals provide vs the hundreds of cvs, walgreens, riteaids…etc. 65% of our nation’s pharmacist work in a retail setting and only 22% work in the hospitals. Obviously there is not enough hospitals to provide the other 65% with a job. If my attempt to get out to retail don’t work I think I’ll just have to go back to school to do something else.
……..I personaly know a pharmacist who finished a 2 year residency who just accepted a staff hospital position. She has been looking for 8 months before landing the staff position.
Wow, did not realize the outlook on pharmacy was so bad. I graduated two years ago with a degree in Electrical Engineering. When I see comments about the amount of money new pharmD grads are getting, it makes me sick. It will in all likely hood take me 10-15 years of work to make 100k a year. A new EE grad starts at about 60K these days, while it is still a bachelors degree, a 5 year one at that, do you have to take calculus 1-4, years of physics, fourier analysis… you get my point, pharmacist are overpayed big time.
Hi Jay. I just want to ask how much students loans you owe from obtaining your EE. Pharmacist do get pay 100k right now but that’s not guarantee in the future (after tax its like 60K, after student loans its like 45K). We all owe an average of 120k for 4 years of pharmacy school not considering undergrad. Also, pharmacist have higher liability. Like doctors or dentist. We can loose our license if we make a mistake. And in the working environment that we are forced to work in, we are at higher risks than anyone. It is not fair to compare the course you have to take. There are classes that we are require to take which EE grads do not have (biochem, organic chem, pharmacology etc…). Not to mention our crazy work environment. I work on average 12 hours but only get pay for 10 hours. I don’t get a break and only have 1 restroom break. If I get to drink more than 1 bottle of water, munch on a bag of chips and pee more than once a day without getting cussed out at by my customer it’ll be one very good day for me. Overpay….I don’t know
I graduated in 2008 and live in NOVA. Job market here is so saturated. There is no opening for retail pharmacy. Newly grads for 2012 have to through several 2 hours of intense interview for a retail job with no guarantee. The amount of stress level has increase dramatically with major budget cuts and high demands from employers. They are firing people left and right here. Workings 60 hours for 40 hours base pay does not mean anything if the numbers don’t meet expectation. I wish I don’t owe 150k in students loans to go into a profession like this.
i lost my job from an independant 3 months ago….not wanting to risk my license/////it’ bad out there…i answer ads to no avail…i am very depressed..i get sporatic agency work,buut cannot live on that….i did the chain thing with w and c for a combined 12 years and was treated like crap….did ltc for a year but the place was bought out by omnicare(another giant) and they didn’t have a spot for me…i’m desperate living in s. fla….any clue on what to do and for future rph’s…bail if and when you can….i don’t see it geting any better
I currently work at a hospital and I absolutely love my job. However, it is in the middle of nowhere and I have no desire to be here forever. I am away from my friends and family. It’s a small town with not much going on. That is not the way to live your life, at least not for me. But I guess it is better to have a job than to live in a better place with no job at all. It makes me depressed when I was searching for jobs in the areas that I want to live in. When I was looking to apply to pharmacy school, there were jobs everywhere with sign on bonuses. My friend just graduated with a nursing degree and cannot find a job. Is it like this out there for all healthcare people? It’s depressing to think I have another 30+ years of this.
at least you have a job!!!!
it is amazing that the Pharmacist Manpower Project is so often quoted. It may be non-profit, but look who runs it! Groups like the AACP who are hardly non-partisan. They are biased to their profession. It is just like going to a democrat or republican headquarters and asking if their candidates are any good! Just look objectively at the market. It is not very pretty!!
I got out in 1996- went back to school to be a PA. Have had little regret with that costly gut-wrenching move.
Forget the AGI numbers- TRY to find the exact source of their data. Good luck!
P.S. Oops…that should have been ADI.
My mother is a pharmacist of 10 years and cannot find a job. She worked hard after coming to this country with nothing but her degree in Pharm from Poland. Life got in the way but she eventually got her license here and was hired until March of 2010 when she was “fired” due to “unacceptable standards” This was COMPLETE BS as her supervisor said specifically said she was doing a good job., What I’m trying to say is that pharmacists are treated horribly and then released like nothing into the world to fend for themselves. What’s worse is that I feel hopeless with trying to help her find at least something. I want to warn anybody wanting to go into pharmacy, due so at your own risk. There is no guarantee of a job in that field. Due have a Plan B when in that field or else face unrecoverable debt.
I am a second year pharmacy student at a top ranked northeast pharmacy school. I agree with the grim outlook for the pharmacy job future. A new pharmacy school opened up in the same city as my school. The first class is graduating from that school the same year as my class. All of my undergrad classmates that were rejected from my school were accepted to this new school. In my opinion, none of the students were hard working nor intelligence. This was the only pharmacy school they were accepted to. This has made the competition for pharmacy intern positions in my area EXTREMELY competitive. And in most cases, it was about who you knew – not about how qualified you were. I am a top student, hold many leadership positions, and have research experience. I had to move into my parents house for the summer. I worked as an intern in a very tiny community hospital about an hour from their house. I was very disappointed with this position as I learned very little. The only reason I even was offered the position was because the director was a friend of the family. I also have friends in the area who completed PGY1 and PGY2 residencies and cannot find an inpatient position. The market is terrible and from what I can see it will only get worse. I have been considering going into a different field for a while now and everyone’s comments on here were a huge help! Thanks!
Liz, I was in your situation too exactly. I moved on, it was hard to leave Pharmacy School but you have to look at the bigger picture and the debt load. I went into the military and am completing one of there health programs. I was able to get a g.i bill and in addtion can pay my loans off after 9 months of active duty pay. I left after my 1st term 2nd year. Truth is if you have a really really strong passion go for it but if not, in my opinion its not worth it to end up in retail to work part time and have a ton of debt load. But it’s true alot of other professions aren’t safe but most don’t have this debt and stress load. Good Luck
I work with pharmacists at a compounding facility. Pharmacists are overpaid monkeys. None of the pharmacists I work with are intelligent. They spend their shift just initialing papers to release meds for delivery. What a pathetic way to spend your life? I’m doing my undergrad and have been employed there on a PT basis for about 2 years.
I graduated last year and have been unemployed since!! I am so fustrated with the lack of jobs. I am applying now to tech positions, how bad is that? I really wish i had completed another degree because pharmacy is going downhill. I would love to work in industry here is no forward movement in community pharmacy, no one is thinking about the future
I was offered admission in NSU of Florida a few days back to start PharmD in this fall. I have become very confused going through all these comments. It’s a life and death decision for me. Is there a difference between work scope of normal RPhs and ParmD RPhs? I mean, are the PharmDs suffering the same way? Some ppl are encouraging me to start the studies. How bad really is the situation right now. Please give me honest suggestions. I am 43, and by the time I will finish PharmD I will be 47. How difficult is it to repay the loans? In my case it will be around 180,000 dollars (tuition plus living and other expenses for 3 years). Please suggest me.
thats too much money/ don’t do it..
Hi. I am a PharmD. I work along with Rph’s in a hospital and we all do the same work for the same pay. There is no difference. All pharmacy students are getting their PharmD’s now so the scope of practice between the Rph’s and the PharmD’s is the same. The only way you can distance yourself from the rest is to do a 2 year residency after your PharmD…but it does not guarantee you a job and that’s 2 additional years of education.
Before I started pharmacy school I looked at the demand before making a commitment. At the time there were many jobs available and they were offering sign on bonuses as well. Today its a very different climate. It will be very hard for you to get a job once you finish…and having that massive loan will not help.
If I was looking to start a new career in today’s work environment, I would definitely NOT choose pharmacy. I see too many students who are about to graduate in my hospital with no job prospects at all. They can’t even get intern jobs at community pharmacies anymore.
………..I strongly suggest that you walk into your local pharmacies and hospitals and ask them if they are hiring pharmacists. You will see what the situation is first hand. Best of luck……..
Run while you can – I started at age 49, graduated at 53 with $180K+ in debt, and wish I could go back and undo the whole thing…but I made my bed so now I have to lie in it.
Are you guys okay? I am a PharmD and I think some of our PharmDs are intentionally discouraging students so that they themselves can securely work for more 6-8 years. Pharmacists, specially the PharmDs do have jobs…..do you see PharmDs walking around without a job…all these are BS…..
One PharmD(?) have commented here: “Pharmacist do get pay 100k right now but that’s not guarantee in the future (after tax its like 60K, after student loans its like 45K)”……. Is it the right statement? 100K has a max tax of 17,250 (9500+25% over 69000)….so the after-tax amount is about 83K, and this is quite good….it is not 60K!….yes, you do have loans…but if you decide to study in college in almost any subject, loan amount is more or less the same….which of the other subjects give a return like PharmD? Please stop confusing people…Do you guys know that, despite rescission and all these, there is proliferation of retail pharmacies NY?..this is because the govt is deciding again to shift to a per prescription fee of 5.5 dollar from existing 1.25 dollars….Neel, these are the trends you have to look at, before listening to others.
PharmNY – I can’t speak for the other PharmD’s who have posted on this board but you are way off your mark if you think they have self motivating intentions and are just looking to secure work for the next 6-8 years. My work in hospital pharmacy represents a very small part of my income. I own several commercial/residential buildings in prime area’s that are mortgage free. One of my bi-monthly paychecks from the hospital goes to my wife (who does not work) to spend on “stuff”…so my job is definitely not the source of income that I would like to protect from new grads. As a matter of fact, I go out of my way to get the students who come through our doors as excited about the profession as possible.
That said…If the market and the economy remains the same for the near future and my son was to tell me that he is interested in pharmacy…I would discourage him. It does not matter if he will make 87k or 60k after taxes…..that does not matter if you can’t find a job in the first place! When I graduated they were lining up to hire us. This year 50% of the grads did not have a job lined up upon graduation. That is huge.
Currently st. john’s is charging 25k per semester. Students finish pharmacy school with 200k+ in loans. A co-worker is paying 2k per month for his loans (recent grad) and is putting as much overtime as possible to pay his bills. He is hoping to pay off his loan in a couple of years and then save for a few more so he will have a down payment for a house. 100k per year is nothing! Especially if you live in NY! Especially if you have a family to support! Especially if you have a mortgage payment.
…..And not every retail pharmacy that opens in NY is a success. I have seen more then my share of pharmacy closures.