By Phil Galewitz
KHN Staff Writer
Provided by Kaiser Health News
OCT 13, 2010
After years of steady progress, the percentage of 2 year olds in private health plans being immunized dropped last year, according to a report released today by an industry watchdog group.
The study by the National Committee on Quality Assurance, which measures how well health plans ensure that members receive appropriate care, found a “disturbing” drop in the rates of vaccination:
- Measles, mumps and rubella: fell to 90.6 percent in 2009 from 93.5 percent in 2008.
- Diphtheria, tetanus and whooping cough fell to 85.4 percent last year from 87.2 percent in 2008.
- The chickenpox slipped to 90.6 percent in 2009 from 92 percent in 2008.
Health plan officials attributed the decline to parents’ fears that vaccinations could be linked to autism. Though public health experts and government studies have found no evidence that vaccinations cause autism, the subject has been subject of fierce debate on the Internet and outspoken celebrities have fueled the controversy.
“Vaccination paranoia is out there,” said George Halvorson, CEO of Kaiser Permanente, of the nation’s largest health plans. But he also said it is unclear if the one year drop signals a trend.
“Parents are putting children in danger due to misinformation,” said Margaret O’Kane, NCQA president.
Dr. Roberta Herman, chief medical officer for Harvard Pilgrim Healthcare, a health plan based in Wellesley, Mass., said her company has seen the falloff in vaccination. “Parents feel overwhelmed at the current schedule of immunizations,” she said. As a result, some parents may be delaying some shots.
The study, which examined quality data from more than 1,000 health plans that cover a total of 118 million Americans, found that vaccination rates increased in children who were in Medicaid health plans. Medicaid is the state-federal program that covers low-income Americans. Despite the increase, vaccination rates last year were still mostly higher among children in private health plans than Medicaid (for the diphtheria tetanus pertussis, the vaccination rate was about 80% for Medicaid and 85% for private plans).
This article was reprinted from kaiserhealthnews.org with permission from the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation. Kaiser Health News, an editorially independent news service, is a program of the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonpartisan health care policy research organization unaffiliated with Kaiser Permanente.
Not much you can do to prevent self-selection.
Sorry Ms. O’Kane but just because parents aren’t vaccinating doesn’t mean they’re misinformed. This is one of the hottest debates out there. I’ve read enough feedbacks on other vaccination articles to know that it could get ugly in here as well.
Seems like about 10 to 20 percent of people out there are just total fucking idiots, so those numbers look about right. I assume they’ll fluctuate around that level long term.
Future Doc,
Ummmm…less parents are vaccinated because they are afraid that vaccination leads to autism, which is not true. So they ARE misinformed.
In my previous post I meant less parents are vaccinating* not vaccinated
Well that’s where the debate is, and not only about vaccines causing autism. But like I said, there are plenty more other feedback comments on similar articles that you can look through if you’d like-I don’t feel like re-creating that storm on here too. It pretty much leads to nowhere anyways. There are good points to each side of the argument and ultimately the choice is up to the parents.
There are no good points to the side that says vaccines cause autism. Even if there was some sort of mystery link (that no evidence has been able to prove), the diseases these vaccines protect against are way more likely to infect and kill a child. Not a good argument at all if you ask me.
@Future Doc
Perhaps you should consider political reporting as a career instead of Medicine. You seem to be perfectly happy lending credence to a side of an argument that has zero basis in fact (i.e. the Anti-vaccination crowd) and pretending that both sides have an equal claim to the truth.
A parent who has read the misinformation on vaccines is not “informed.” Those parents are ignorant and need to be properly educated before they their kids and their kids’ friends at risk.
Yeah, that “toxic shit” that keeps kids from contracting Measles, Mumps or Rubella so that they don’t end up maimed for life or worse. I bet you think Thimerasol causes Autism.
Look, I couldn’t care less if one of these mothers or fathers wants to forgo a Tetanus vaccination and go dive into a pile of rusty nails. Do with your body what you will if it doesn’t effect other people. But the problem here is that parents are making bat-shit crazy decisions and it’s their children who have to bear the brunt of their ignorance. Someone needs to be an advocate for these babies who can’t defend themselves from the dangerous decisions of their parents.
@ Future Doc
Listen bud – most Americans are not very smart, and because of their admiration of celebrities they tend to believe everything coming out of Hollywood. The fact of the matter is that the autism-vaccine connection was popularized by Jenny McCarthy, a former playboy playmate. She stated on Oprah that she got her information from Google (obviously equivalent to a medical education).
I am a firm believer that the internet makes the few smart Americans smarter, and the many dumb Americans dumber. Remember, anyone can post anything on the internet. I don’t know how many times I have read a string of half-truths on the internet that actually seem logical. One of my friends in college stopped shampooing his hair because he was balding and read a number of articles on the internet that linked sodium laurel sulfates to hair loss (Please google it). To him the logic seemed pretty sound: “More people are going bald today than ever before. This is due to the overabundance of SLS compounds in shampoos. Sodium laurel/laureth sulfates are harsh chemicals that, overtime, destroy the the hairs’ roots.” But the article was written by some random guy and there was no actual scientific evidence backing the claim. As a result, his hair continued to fall out.
It is called the fox news phenomenon – creating a story that seems logical but has no actual evidence (or presents only half of whatever evidence there is to prove an ignorant/uninformed point). It is true that sodium laurel sulfates are harsh chemicals (Head and shoulders uses a large amount of the compound in their shampoos to remove flakes) but there is no actual proof that people are more bald than before, and even if that were true, there is no proof that baldness is caused by the SLSs in shampoos and not something else.
If you ever want to become a doctor, let alone a good doctor that people will respect, you better stop paying attention to the trends out of Hollywood. Start listening to the experts in the field of medicine (doctors, for example) and not joe the plumber (or in this case, Jenny the porn star). In the medical profession you are dealing with peoples lives, and if you are that damn ignorant you have no business becoming a doctor.
The fact of the matter is that vaccines due have rare consequences. From a purely selfish point of view, not getting vaccinated in a society with herd immunity may statistically be beneficial.
However, this has more to do with stupidity than selfishness.
So I did some math..
vaccine contains 50 mcg of thimerosal which is 50% mercury or 25 mcg. EPA (environmental protection agency) set toxic dose of mercury at .1 mcg/kg for consumption (1 kg=2.2 lbs)
A 2 year old weighs on average 28.4 lbs or 12.9 kgs
25/.1/12.9= 19.4 times the toxic dose level or 1.94 times the high level set by the FDA (1 mcg/kg)
factor in that these numbers are for ingested mercury where bile gets ride of and excretes more than 90% of mercury, then the amount of mercury able to do harm is conservatively 10 times higher when injected. Or roughly 194 times the safe levels set by the EPA.
not to say it causes autism, but injecting a 2 year old with potentially 194 times the dose considered to be “safe” could give cause for concern to many parents
Many people should not be parents, simple as that.
@ med student
With all due respect, I am not that dumb to listen to “joe the plumber.” There are many doctors that don’t vaccinate their own children, and I’m pretty sure the makers of the vaccines won’t even use their own product- that would be an interesting thing to look into. I don’t base my views on what Jenny McCarthy says either. My views are based along the lines of what docdoc goose stated. I also think it’s foolish to vaccinate against diseases that are now known to be prevented by things such as washing your hands. If one compares the sanitary measures that were known and used when the first vaccines were developed compared with the cleanliness we have today, one can see why there were such terrible diseases in earlier times- I would think that cleanliness (along with strong a immune system) is a major factor of disease prevention. I wish the focus was more on helping to boost the body’s natural immune system that has been working since the beginning of time instead of unnaturally infesting it with vaccines. Another fact that raises concern for me is that vaccine manufacturers are shielded from liability for any injury caused by their product! WTF!?!?! If you are claiming to have so much assurance in your product, then why would you make sure that measures are in place to protect you from liability- even for the few “rare” adverse reactions that they claim can occur?!?!?! Doesn’t that strike you as an odd action? Bottom line is that there is still soooo much to be discovered about the human body that noone can be too sure that things like vaccines are safe. That is why there will always be debates about vaccines. If you want to vaccinate yourself and your children and everyone you know- go ahead. Why do the vaccinated worry that they will contract the disease from someone that isn’t vaccinated against it? If they believe they’re protected against the disease since they got the vaccine, then what do they have to worry about??— Oh, what,- maybe the vaccine didn’t work for them after all? or is there some other well-thought of excuse?
I personally know a child whose parents listened to their doctors recommondation for vaccines and soon after the kid got jabbed, he ended up in intensive care and almost died. So that means what- that at least he survived and bulit up an immunity to the disease because if he would ever get the disease (small chance) then it would definitely kill him?? That’s what the other side will probably argue, but you know what- when that happens to your child or someone that you know, I’m sure that would raise at least a bit of skepticism about vaccines.
@ Futuredoc,
Why wouldn’t you vaccinate your kids? I am honestly wondering.
I don’t think that washing hands is an effective policy for aiborne infections such as measles, let alone in a situation when kids play together…
The main problem with vaccination policy, in my opinion, is the “vaccinate-no-matter-what” approach. The CDC guidelines say that it’s ok to vaccinate a kid who’s has a runny nose, a rash, a slight fever. The thought is – since these irresponsible parents finally got the kid to the pediatrician, let’s get them up-to-date on the shots. In fact, poor kiddies with already stressed immune system (from a mild virus) get crushed by a major blow of vaccines. In the same spirit, ideally, a kid should stay home away from other kids a few days after he/she was vaccinated. Instead, they go to day care next day, where they catch a virus and the poor immune system just can’t handle it all – and that’s when these kids get really really sick. But of course, its all vaccine’s fault.
@ Irska
AWESOME points!
@ GillGrad
Unless someone will sign a document saying that vaccines are 100% safe and no adverse reactions are possible, it is my legal right to refuse vaccinations. I simply don’t trust the ingredients that are in the shots. And noone knows the long-term negative side effects of vaccines. Noone can say that vaccines are 100% safe and noone wants to take responsibility if anything goes wrong, but instead try to find another excuse for the adverse side effect- when, clearly there is no other reason!!!
@ Iriska
You have a good point, but that’s not always the case. It wasn’t the case with my story- he didn’t go anywhere. Sure, he may have caught something even from touching the counter on his way out from the hospital- which he could have fought off if his immune system wasn’t already under attack from the vaccine.
Just seeing what a hot debate this topic is makes me want to think twice. I used to get vaccines until I started to look into what’s really going on. I don’t need to only look for “reputable” sources of research because I don’t know what conflicts of interest are involved. Why is everyone looking for evidence based research for this topic! Use COMMON SENSE and don’t inject bacteria, toxic chemicals, and viruses directly into yourself and your kids- no matter what the fancy mechanism of action is!
@Futuredoc,
Will you get vaccinated for Hep B for clinical rotations?
@ Future Doc
“I’m pretty sure the makers of the vaccines won’t even use their own product- that would be an interesting thing to look into.”
I love an argument that involves a ton of speculation.
Great points from McGill Grad and Iriska.
Autism does seem to be more prevalent in America, from what I have heard, than in other countries. The cause, however, is unknown. It could be caused by the large amounts of hormones and chemicals we ingest daily, it could be from over-exposure to radiation, and yes it could possibly be from vaccines. The key word is “could.” If you do not want to vaccinate yourself or your family members that is your decision, but it would be irresponsible of you, as a physician, to note promote vaccination. I do agree with you that “there is still soooo much to be discovered about the human body that noone can be too sure that things like vaccines are safe,” but the vaccine-autism connection is not proven – it is speculation – and you cannot discount the known benefits of a vaccine because of speculation.
Other notes
- From what I have read, signs of autism generally show up before a child’s first vaccination.
- I have also heard this comparison and others like it: “Icelandic physicians push fewer vaccines and their incidence of autism is lower than that of the US.” Iceland (its small population size, lack of genetic diversity when compared to the US, more strict food and drug standards, lifesyle, etc.), along with other countries, cannot be compared to the US. I think we can all agree that this country is unique. Be sure to look for lurking variables when doing research (I’m not saying your guilty of this, it is just something to remember).
Also, just because there is a debate does not mean both sides have merit. Global warming, Obama’s nationality/religion – these are all things that are debated but i think you can agree that the more radical sides are rediculous.
@ McGillGrad
I already got my Hep B series back in the days when I wasn’t interested in the vaccine controversy.
@ Med Student
I appreciate that your latest post wasn’t as mean towards me as the one before that. I did want to point out that in no way am I “that damn ignorant” now as I was before about vaccines. Hearing that vaccines may do more harm than good made me want to look into it more and see what valuable sources are saying on the same topic (I have come across many anti-vac doctors, scientists, researchers- I just didn’t write their names down). So as a doctor, I do not want to pretty much force vaccines onto my patients if they aren’t 100% safe! How is that irresponsible!?! I think that is very responsible of me!
The patient needs to be aware of both sides of the story and know the risks and benefits involved with vaccinations. So I will not promote vaccination, I will not promote not vaccinating either- but instead promote they research the matter and look at both sides of the story before making their decision. As their physician I will respect whatever choice they make. I just hope that the indoctrination of medical school education will make me want to act on the best interest of my patients, not of the politicians. Although Obamacare is a whole other issue that’s making me wonder if med school is gonna be worth the hassle.
I don’t really know what the details are of the vaccine-autism link, but obviously they must have some compelling arguments since the debate still goes on!
@Med Student
I think you are being too kind to Med Student. The debate about vaccinations is essentially done at this point.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=6775
Vaccines don’t causes autism. We are as 100% sure of this as you can get with science.
*too kind to (I really hope you don;’t grow up to be a) Future Doc.
@ BradyB
Why not?
@ med student,
As a parent of 2 I can tell you that a child receives their first shot at the ripe age of 1 day (Hep B). The next shots (6! of them) is due at 2 months. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2010/10_0-6yrs-schedule-pr.pdf
Autism usually shows up between ages 1 and 2 years.
This is another issu I personally have problem with – giving multiple vaccines at once. While I agree that vaccines are necessary, I think that the official schedule is way too aggressive. I’m sure there are many explanations for the way it is. I personally, given that my kids, thankfully, do not enter day care until at least 3, vaccinate fully but take it slow and never allowed to vaccinate my child if he/she was unhealthy in any, however smallest, way.
Actually BradyB, just as I told you before, SUCK IT
I’m not sure refusing vaccines makes you a bad parent. There are ignorant, neglectful welfare-collecting parents who vaccinate their kids just because people tell them to. Just because you nod your head to everything your doctor tells you does NOT make you a superior parent. The parent’s job is to advocate for their child and make decisions they feel are in the best interest of the child.
To say that people don’t deserve to have children because they don’t conform with your personal beliefs is asinine. Shame on you for so easily passing judgment–most you all don’t even have children yet. I’m not saying that I will or will not vaccinate my own children but I’d advise you all to get used to asking questions and challenging people who think they know what’s best for your child.
@Future Doc
Please keep showing your maturity. I’m sure you’ll make a wonderful doctor one day.
Rather than debate the topic in good faith, you’ve now told me to “suck it” twice. While I, and various other posters, have explained how dangerous it is to not vaccinate your children and presented you with evidence that the pros greatly outweigh the cons of vaccination.
I hope that when you inevitably choose not to vaccinate your children that they don’t suffer the consequences.
Parents who don’t vaccinate their kids put other people’s children at risk. Not every child who is vaccinated will have immunity to the disease they are vaccinated for (up to 5%). Some kids exposed to these diseases might not have had full vaccination simply by virtue of their age. And if a kid comes to school infected with something that could have been prevented, then every kid who comes into contact with that kid may to be evaluated or prophylactically treated – meaning, the parent who did vaccinate may now be facing wasted time and time off of work.
I personally think that parents should absolutely have the choice to not vax their kids. However, if their unvax’d kid comes to school infected, the rest of the parents should be able to line up to kick that parent’s ass.
Unfortunately, we can’t vaccinate against stupid.
Nothing in medicine, for that matter in life, is 100% safe. Vaccines are no different. However, the benefits far, far outweigh the risks of vaccination.
Unfortunately Future Doc is part of an ever growing group of ignoramuses that seed even the scientific/medical establishment but can’t for the life of them grasp the basic tenets of statistics and evidence assessment. Unfortunately, kids are going to have to start dropping dead and/or suffering the sequela of not being vaccinated before these idiots see the light. Actually, I fear, that even then, they’ll find a way to blame the medicopharma-industrial complex for some grand conspiracy.
@ Brady B
“Those parents are ignorant and need to be properly educated before they their kids and their kids’ friends at risk.”
“But the problem here is that parents are making bat-shit crazy decisions and it’s their children who have to bear the brunt of their ignorance.”
And I’m the one that’s not debating this topic “in good faith”???
Your hostile attitude towards something that I HAVE A CHOICE to do is what made me tell you to suck it. A doctor needs to respect the choices of his patients, not be hostile towards them. I don’t need your rigged evidence that is funded and supported by the vaccine companies themselves. My common sense tells me that there is nothing safe about injecting a child with a dose of mercury that is almost 200 times over the safe dose amount!
@ Future Doc
“but obviously they must have some compelling arguments since the debate still goes on!”
Like I said, just because there is a debate does not mean that there should be. I could tell you that the sky is green, and although we could debate it the fact that there is a debate does not mean that both sides deserve respect.
“Hearing that vaccines may do more harm than good made me want to look into it more and see what valuable sources are saying on the same topic (I have come across many anti-vac doctors, scientists, researchers- I just didn’t write their names down).”
Once again, I highly doubt this claim. Please post a link. You are once again pulling things out of your ass. There is not doctor (MD, DO) in america that believes the risks outweigh the benefits, because there is no evidence that suggests these risks.
“So as a doctor, I do not want to pretty much force vaccines onto my patients if they aren’t 100% safe! How is that irresponsible!?!”
As Now Doc stated, nothing in medicine is 100%. Even something as simple as a blood transfusion has risk.
“The patient needs to be aware of both sides of the story and know the risks and benefits involved with vaccinations. So I will not promote vaccination, I will not promote not vaccinating either- but instead promote they research the matter and look at both sides of the story before making their decision.”
So, as a doctor, you will not guide a patient to the proper treatment? Not only do you not understand what the duties of a doctor are, but you do not seem to understand the purpose of a professional in any field. Just as people turn to lawyers for legal advice, they turn to doctors for medical advice. And they do this because, aside from what is now common sense (ie get rest and drink lots of fluids when sick), the common American cannot make educated health-related decisions for himself – that is a doctor’s job, and that is why there are medical schools. people cannot gain a comprehensive understanding of an illness and properly treat themselves by simply researching on the internet. There is a reason it takes many years of hard work sacrifice to become a doctor – because a medical education cannot be gained by surfing the web for a couple of hours.
If I am a dermatologist, for example, and a kid comes to me with a severe case of inflammatory acne, and he tells me that he has tried BP products, topical retinoids, and oral and topical antibiotics, and has not had success with these products, I will use my own judgment (take into account scarring, emotional effects, etc) to determine whether the patient should undergo a treatment of isotretinoin (Accutane). As a doctor I will inform the patient of the possible side effects (ie noesbleeds, hair loss, IBD), because, as a professional in the field of medicine, i am expected to know and relay that information. I will also give my advice, because, believe it or not, people go to doctors for medical treatments AND advice. In the end, no doctor can force a patient to undergo a treatment/procedure.
This will be my last comment because I have come to realize that Future Doc is probably a dumb ass high school student, and I hope that I am right because if you are in college and so easily persuaded by the media there is no way you will ever become a doctor.
The vaccine-autism connection is trendy, like panera bread and kindles. high schoolers like to grab onto trendy ideas and, although they are almost always misinformed, will argue their points with such conviction. I know at that age you think you know everything, but trust me you don’t – not even close.
Remember, claims without evidence are just claims.
- “the sky is green”
*sigh*
who cares whether a doctor thinks if vaccines are good or not, they are being fed the same information everyone else is, they aren’t in labs doing research usually.
The majority of Dentists still believe fluoridating water is good for you because that is what they are told even though all the real research says it is poisonous and there are declassified government documents from world war two saying it is poisonous and that putting it in the water is just the cheapest way to dispose of it.
Dear Futuredoc: I hope ur name is not indicative of your future goals, and if so please consider other career options and defn not peds. Who do you know that is involved in the vaccine manufacturing that does not give it to their own kid? Also I think you need to do some research on malpractice laws. The reason manufacturers are protected is due to number needed to treat(heard of that?) It basically states bc of the fact it helps 999 ppl out of a 1000, the side affects for one person should not be held as a liability bc it is helping the mass, general population. You would know this if you were smarter and well read. Also i think you’r knowledge is a drop of water in an ocean, sanitary measure prevent all diseases? Who are you? You have to be joking, heard of plague? Heard of deaths from scarlet fever, chicken pox, and measels in the past? Why do you thikn agricultural communites in many continents had mulitple children back in the day? Bc maybe half would die from disease that today are preventable and treatable. As for the child you know “personally” that ended up in icu after he got ‘jabbed’ could have been for multiple reasons. Some vaccines are carried in vessels, so the child might have been allergic to that, or they are bound ot other proteins for better absorption,maybe the kid was allergic to that? I think you’re getting your foot deeper and deeper in your mouth if not else where. As now doc and others have stated, you some how surived the natural selection process and are infecting the already exsiting dumb parents who should not even be having kids, and no unfort medicine does not cure stupidity. Please consider holistic health and spiritual healing practice and not medicine for your future. Although You might not be cut out for that either. Its also sad, bc some ppl are following hollywood, you are dumb of your own resort, who’s to blame there? Please read up, and why are you even on this page?
pss– Med student: I couldn’t agree with you anymore, I might have to quote you in the future. Goodluck my friend!
@Future Doc:
Who the hell is this “Noone” character you keep referencing? He seems pretty wise…
“The only safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used.” –Dr. James A. Shannon, National Institutes of Health
“Pediatricians continue to defend vaccination to the death. The question parents should be asking is, ‘Whose death?’”–Robert Mendelsohn, M.D.
“Official data shows that large scale vaccination has failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection”–Dr Sabin, developer of Polio vaccine.
“All vaccination has the effect of directing the three values of the blood into or toward the zone characteristics of cancer and leukemia…Vaccines do predispose to cancer and leukemia.” Professor L. Vincent – founder of Bioelectronics
“I think that no person would permit anybody to get close to them with an inoculation if they would really know how they are made, what they carry, what has been lied to them about and what the real percent of danger is of contracting such a disease which is minimal.”
–Dr Eva Snead
“It is pathetic and ludicrous to say we ever vanquished smallpox with vaccines, when only 10% of the population was ever vaccinated.” –Dr Glen Dettman
“I once believed in Jenner; I once believed in Pasteur. I believed in vaccination. I believed in vivisection. But I changed my views as the result of hard thinking.” –Dr Hadwen
“The medical authorities keep lying. Vaccination has been a disaster on the immune system. It actually causes a lot of illnesses. We are changing our genetic code through vaccination.” –Guylaine Lanctot M.D.
“Cancer was practically unknown until cowpox vaccination began to be introduced. I have had to do with 200 cases of cancer and I have never seen a case of cancer in an unvaccinated person.” –W.B. Clark, M.D.
“I have removed cancers from vaccinated arms exactly where the poison was injected.” E.J. Post, M.D.
“I am convinced that the increase of cancer is due to vaccination.” –Forbes Laurie, M.D. Medical Director of the Metropolitan Cancer Hospital, London
“My data indicates that the studies used to support immunization are so flawed that it is impossible to say if immunization provides a net benefit to anyone or to society in general.” John B.Classen, M.D.
To make my bias clear, I firmly believe that people should do their own reading and reasearch, and come to their own conclusions regarding medical issues. I have done some reading in this arena, and my conclusion is that there is currently no evidence that links vaccinations to SIDS or Autism, and there is much to be gained from a public safety perspective.
Not to be rude, but there are several quotes listed above which are purported to come from medical professionals. I think you have more reading to do because most of those doctors feel there is plenty of evidence?
I have read articles published in medical journals at my doctors office and those alone were enough to convince me. One article in particular noted that many researchers, working at the pharmacutical companies, who concokt new drugs, conduct drug trial and prepare reports of their findings on occassion have admitted to publishing *fudged* reports, not necessarily because they want to, but because the pharmacutical company insisted. Surely no one needs reminding of the Vioxx disaster or the countless other drugs which have been removed from the shelves for one reason or another. These are the same companies producing vaccines … are they not?
@Furure Doc again:
“A doctor needs to respect the choices of his patients, not be hostile towards them.”
–Future Doc
Yeah, well it is also our job to combat scientific ignorance especially in those who come to us for help. If a patient came to you and said, “I heard that slitting my wrists and letting myself bleed for a bit will help cure my cancer…” would you just be like “Well, it’s your choice!” and hand them a scalpel?
wow snowman, what a stupid comparison.
@Future Doc:
No more stupid than the bullshit you are spewing.
@Future Doc:
Further more, I find that it is a accurate comparison as they both represent you allowing your hypothetical patient to harm themselves because you have failed to correct their ignorance.
Ok I will admit that I have not actually been in a lab doing research on vaccines (yet), so I don’t have any solid solid evidence for my claims except for just using my brain and common sense to question what you are spewing. However that means that you are spewing bullshit also since I’m pretty sure that you have not directly done research in the lab on vaccines for what you are claiming, but you have just been fed information.
The patient can “bleed for a bit” by themselves without my help, they don’t need a scalpel. But I doubt they will go and vaccinate themselves on their own.
@Future Doc… yet again.
Ok, there is no evidence that links vaccines to autism or anything like that. You are in effect harming your hypothetical patient by discouraging them from receiving vaccines that will protect them from contracting diseases that could potentially killing them; in the same way, you would be harming your patient by not informing them that slitting their wrists (on their time or yours — what they do to treat themselves outside your care is just as much your concern*) will in fact not cure their cancer.
*If you disagree, and find that you are unconcerned with their health as soon as they leave your supervision then I suggest you rethink becoming a doctor; for that requires some amount of humanitarian values that you would then lack.
Had to say one more thing. Could not resist.
@ Jennifer
“I firmly believe that people should do their own reading and reasearch, and come to their own conclusions regarding medical issues.”
Hey, why don’t we have people do their own surgeries too? Oh yeah- because they can’t. Please read my third post regarding medical school and what it is used for (spoiler – to turn out people who are qualified to practice medicine). Just so you know, you can’t print out an MD degree from your computer…probably because a comprehensive knowledge of medicine can not be gained through casual research.
It is amazing how most americans, with their sub par high school educations, think that they know and can do everything. then you show them a map and they can’t find the state that they live in.
“my conclusion is that there is currently no evidence that links vaccinations to SIDS or Autism”
Since you are obviously not a doctor or in med school, your opinion is worthless. I’m happy to hear, however, that you are more sensible than Future Doc.
“I have read articles published in medical journals at my doctors office and those alone were enough to convince me.”
Yeah, i’m sure your doctor keeps a copy of the New England Journal of Medicine right next to the Reader’s Digest and Motor Trend. I have been in many of doctors offices (appointments and rotations) and have never once seen a medical journal in the waiting room. And even if there were, you go to that particular doctor at most twice a year – so you’ve probably read no more than an hour’s worth. I’m glad you feel you know SO much already.
“Surely no one needs reminding of the Vioxx disaster or the countless other drugs which have been removed from the shelves for one reason or another. These are the same companies producing vaccines … are they not?”
Technically, but these companies only produce vaccines because they receive money from the government to do so (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/SwineFluNews/story?id=7657142&page=1). The flu vaccine, for example, is only good for a year because the influenza virus constantly mutates. Since the vaccine becomes obsolete after one year, has a price limit, and requires money and man-power each year to develop, it is not profitable for big pharm companies to produce vaccines. They are more inclined to produce drugs that they can set the prices of, and that only need to be developed once – drugs like lunesta and viagra. Companies like GSK and Pfizer will make sure that they produce safe vaccines (although nothing in medicine is 100% safe) because continued financial support from the government depends on the integrity of their product. In the production of drugs such as vioxx and viagra, where the profits come directly from the consumer, there are no large financial ramifications (lawsuits are very small portion). And because these companies can set the prices as high as they want, it makes economic sense for them to put out as many drugs as they can (ie pill for restless leg syndrome). Therefore, with these drugs there is unfortunately more room for number fudging. Basically, big pharm treats government funded development and research differently.
Finally, quotes without evidence are not proof – they are opinion. Maybe you should go back to your middle-school and learn what the Scientific Method is. Also, based on the information you have provided (or lack there of), neither you nor I can judge whether these quotes are anecdotal or typical.
I’m no medical student; the closest I’ve ever come to any medical field is a biochemistry class I took for my chemistry minor. Maybe I’ll add biophysics to that in grad school, but that’s beside the point.
Perhaps this is why I’d never make a good doctor, but doesn’t all the disease prevented by vaccination outweigh the handful of potentially harmful side-effects that it might have? To those of you who didn’t immediately scroll down to begin flaming me for that remark: That’s just how a lot of things work. We build cars to make everyday life more convenient for everyone, and the accidents that occur are just taken in stride. I’m not saying they aren’t tragic, but it motivates us to build them safer. We move forward.
Isn’t total eradication of some disease like Polio one of the goals of people in the medical profession so that, theoretically, one day in the future we can say that those immunizations will no longer be /necessary/?
One thing to keep in mind about the math above – an entire vial is not used in one vaccine. It makes several vaccines, so no one person is getting that much thimerosal. Also, they stopped making most vaccines with the thimerosal. All you have to do is ask for one without it in it. There are only 2-3 now with thimerosal, and most are meant for adults. After seeing the preventable diseases, vaccines are nothing you should avoid. These poor children come into the ER sick as can be from things that could have been prevented. They sometimes end up intubated and in the PICU. Things like Pertussis (whooping cough) and Hib (epiglottitis) are easily prevented (and currently some of the most common problems seen in unvaccinated children). Not anything I would want any of my children to face. There are a few people out there allergic to the vaccines and they deserve herd immunity. Do your own research on it. Most of the information about threatening things like thimerosal are completely outdated. You will find the same “physicians” supporting anti-vaccines. You will also find many of these physicians found it was easy to make a lot of money supporting something people want “proof from a physician.” It happens all the time on TV ads. This is no different.
Well Mr.Snowman it’s quite the opposite- I am quite concerned with their health so much that I am willing to question exactly what is in the vaccines and what effect it has besides maybe providing immunity against the specified disease. Have you actually seen with your own eyes what happens to the body after the vaccine is administered? Have you seen what changes or possibly mutations it makes in the normal function of the body? I don’t mean seen it in your textbook or perhaps a video. I’m sure you did not, so you have no right telling me that I am harming my hypotheitcal patient by not shoving all those toxins into their system which can potentially kill them- if not sooner then in the long-term.
I see why people believed the benefits outweighed the risks with vaccines back in the days when the diseases were prevalent and harmful, but they’re not really around that much today, so I agree with UC Physics Student’s last remarks.
@ Future Doc
“I see why people believed the benefits outweighed the risks with vaccines back in the days when the diseases were prevalent and harmful, but they’re not really around that much today”
Are you kidding me? Diseases are not around that much today? How old are you? And where is your evidence of risks? Get this through your head – there is no proof that risks exist. NO PROOF! NO EVIDENCE! STOP TALKING AS IF THERE IS! You are such an idiot it sickens me. Please by all means, post a link to a paper that shows a correlation that is statistically significant. Oh yeah – you can’t. You keep on talking as if you know what your talking about, but your entire argument is a collection of generic idiotic statements like “There are risks” and “the science is there.” These statements don’t mean shit. I agree with Med Student – if I told you the sky is green and said some stupid shit like “…uh, its been true…uh…” would you agree? No because there is no evidence. Maybe you should be a lawyer, since you seem to have such a strong grasp of what actual proof is. Please get off of this website you ignorant piece of shit. You are not an expert, and I highly doubt that you have read any papers written by experts. Take your conspiracy shit elsewhere.
If you’d like to see a similar blog about this issue, go to http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-stagliano/89-of-parents-rank-vaccin_b_759305.html because I don’t feel like re-creating the same arguments here.
And about the whole sky thing, to make the argument fair, let’s say that you never actually saw the sky (like you never actually saw what’s in a vaccine and effects it has on the body) but all your life you have heard and read that the sky is green (just like you’ve been told that vaccines are so great)- so that’s what you firmly believe. Then someone comes along with reason to believe that the sky is blue (someone has reason to believe that vaccines are not so safe) but instead of focusing on trying to prove that the sky is indeed blue (that vaccines are indeed harmful), the focus is on disproving that the sky is blue, and there is ridicule and mockery of this new thought.
In my experience, I resort to name calling and demeaning behavior when I feel like I’m loosing the argument.
I am not alone in my thoughts on vaccination, and until honestly disproved otherwise, my thoughts will remain the same.
Yeah, you might want to brush up on the concept of “null hypothesis.” But in the meantime, little kids are being killed by diseases that can be prevented and are reasonably safe for a huge majority – and we know that because of well funded, double-blinded randomized control trials, all easily available on pubmed.
Want some anecdotal evidence, seeing as that’s what you appear to prefer? A good friend of mine lost her 1 year old child to an illness that could have been prevented had the kid he got it from been vaccinated. He’s dead. He died horribly, in pain, in the hospital, full of tubes so his parents couldn’t hold him. You want to tell his parents all of your theories (that you haven’t shown any empirical data on yet) about the relative safety of vaccines? Be my guest.
EDIT:
But in the meantime, little kids are being killed by diseases that can be prevented BY VACCINES THAT are reasonably safe for a huge majority – and we know that because of well funded, double-blinded randomized control trials, all easily available on pubmed.
Bottom line, vaccines are normally safe, but as with all drugs there are potential adverse effects, some even that are debilitating and irreversible. Therefore, parents have to make that choice, beneficence.
IMO, the government should stop shoving vaccines “down our throat”, ie forced immunizations for school, work, etc.
LOL at benefot, should have double checked, now my whole point is a joke. Oh well, for myself I get as few vaccines as possible, but as a med student I have to have them.
FAIL!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/10/20/california.whooping.cough/index.html
Oh, and how does that HuffPo drivel by interweb trolls prove beyond the ad nauseam your arguments again?
There is an outbreak of whooping cough right now in California. 10 infants already dead, by a disease that is completely preventable with vaccines. Granted, these infants were too young to have received the vaccine, but if the rest of the population were properly vaccinated the disease would not have spread to vulnerable infants. Do you know of 10 infants that have died from actually getting a vaccine? If babies dying don’t conjure up enough sympathy to want to vaccinate your kids, then I really don’t know what would.
@Future Doc;
No, you are not presenting any valid reasons at all to believe this… Your attempt to turn that analogy has completely failed.
@Future Doc:
Every Skyscraper we build has the potential to be the target of any event (terrorism, natural disasters, freak accidents, etc) that could cause it to collapse. This would kill hundreds if not thousands of people. By your logic (that some people might possibly sometimes every once in a while have adverse reactions to otherwise reasonably safe vaccines) we should stop building sky scrapers. And why stop there? Lets stop driving; lets stop flying air planes; lets stop leaving our homes because at any moment we could be the victims of a very rare chance event that could possibly sometimes every once in a great while result in injury or death.
The fact is that vaccines are proven deterrents against very unpleasant and deadly diseases. We are fortunate enough to see the result of many parents failing to vaccinate their children out of ignorance in the recent outbreak of the whooping cough in California. While the results of the epidemic are very unfortunate (many children and infants died) we have learned a valuable lesson: these deaths were preventable. Reasonable vaccination would have saved these children.
So how about this: you go to all of the families who lost loved ones and tell them that they did the right thing by not having their children vaccinated.
@Future Doc:
I’m calling your game. You’re a troll. That said:
Sorry for all the posts in a row everyone…
Thank Orac for clearing up this nonsense…
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/10/the_anti-vaccine_movement_versus_the_tru.php
Funny how the rate of vaccination among adults in America is only at 6%, considering the effectiveness of vaccinations wears off anywhere from 3-10 years. Kind of blows the herd immunity theory straight to shit. Just sayin’.